Palestine v Israel.

[Strontium Dog]

Hamas's intent on October 7th was to maximise the loss of life. Israel tries to minimise the loss of innocent life. Considering the efforts Hamas makes to embed itself among the civilian population, it is amazing that the ratio of combatant to civilian deaths in Gaza is so unremarkable.

If you aren't willing to acknowledge the legal and moral difference between outright terrorist murder and the unfortunate loss of life through collateral damage from legitimate military action, then there's no discussion to be had.

[Brian Peacock]

Yeah. As I said, and as you've just reiterated, a price worth paying.

[Sean Hayden]

How Changes in the Israeli Military Led to the Failure of October 7

Overreliance on technology, dehumanization of Palestinians and incompetence left a once-effective force unable to prevent Hamas’ assault

In public presentations, Saar Koursh, former CEO of the Israeli security firm Magal Security Systems — the company that built the Gaza border fence — often boasted that the blockaded territory was his “showroom.”

“Anybody can give you a very nice PowerPoint, but few can show you such a complex project as Gaza that is constantly battle-tested,” Koursh said in a 2016 interview.

Magal’s smart fence formed part of an integrated system of concrete barriers, high-tech sensor systems, automated machine-gun nests and observation towers dubbed the “Iron Wall” by some Israelis in tribute to a term coined by the radical Zionist pioneer Zeev Jabotinsky. By the time of its completion in 2021, the Gaza border fence and the system of controls supporting it were deemed impenetrable. The more than 2 million Palestinians trapped behind the barrier were put out of sight and mind of the Israeli public.

Under this system, every inch of the Gaza Strip was routinely surveilled by drones, satellites and spy balloons known as aerostats. All communications were forcibly routed through Israel and monitored. In case Palestinian militant groups thought to fire rockets over the fence, even the sky was guarded by the U.S.-funded missile defense system known as Iron Dome. Nothing, it was thought, could happen in Gaza without Israel knowing.

Yet on Oct. 7 this seemingly invincible system of control failed catastrophically. The details by now are familiar: On that day, 50 years after the start of the 1973 Arab-Israeli War, thousands of Hamas-affiliated fighters streamed deep into Israeli territory in a combined land, air and sea attack. The attackers took over 200 people hostage, while killing an estimated 376 members of local Israeli security forces and the military, along with 767 civilians. Despite their oversight of Gaza, the Israeli military — the Israeli Defense Forces or IDF — failed to detect the incursion as it happened, in some cases learning of it alongside the general public through social media posts and frantic phone calls from the front.

--continued https://newlinesmag.com/argument/how-ch ... october-7/

[rainbow]

If you aren't willing to acknowledge the legal and moral difference between outright terrorist murder and the unfortunate loss of life through collateral damage from legitimate military action, then there's no discussion to be had.

Bombing a refugee camp is terrorism.
Not legitimate.
A war crime.

[Brian Peacock]

No rainbow. You have to acknowledge that the deaths of innocent children on one side are completely different to the deaths of innocent children on the other, else there's nothing to talk about - or you're probably doing a blood libel.

[Strontium Dog]

If you aren't willing to acknowledge the legal and moral difference between outright terrorist murder and the unfortunate loss of life through collateral damage from legitimate military action, then there's no discussion to be had.

Bombing a refugee camp is terrorism.
Not legitimate.
A war crime.

Bombing anything is legitimate if it becomes a legitimate military target.

But they didn't bomb the refugee camp though, did they. They bombed something away from the camp, the real damage was done when a Hamas weapons dump exploded. Storing weapons among civilians, which is actually a war crime.

Your problem is that you uncritically swallow Hamas lies.

You might want to ask yourself why you'd sooner believe Islamists who want to wipe out Western civilisation than Jewish democrats.

[Brian Peacock]

You want to talk about the moral legitimacy of Israeli-caused fatalities and injuries against the morally bankrupt action of Hamas, but the deaths of innocent children and infants, adult non-combatants and the elderly among the general population of Israel-Palestine is not something I'm prepared to make a moral distinctuon between, to 'swallow', even if you'd rather we chomp on the unsupported assertion that Hamas are lying about the casualties and their composition. If the Palestinian Health Authority figures are wrong show us what the right figures are. How many innocent deaths is Israel responsible for, or do you agree with Israel's president Isaac Herzog that there are no innocent civilians in Gaza?

Meanwhile, Joe Biden has said that there is “every reason” to draw the conclusion that Benjamin Netanyahu is prolonging the war in Gaza for his own political self-preservation.

[pErvinalia]

Biden is an antisemite, though.

[Brian Peacock]

Clearly not a friend of Israel.

[JimC]

Lots of nasty graffiti appearing in places around Melbourne, both anti-semitic (often targeting businesses owned by Jews) and anti-muslim and/or anti-Palestinian. One recent example had things like "death to Palestinians" and "muslims get out", accompanied by swastikas. I think we can rule out Jewish people being responsible for that lot...

[rainbow]

If you aren't willing to acknowledge the legal and moral difference between outright terrorist murder and the unfortunate loss of life through collateral damage from legitimate military action, then there's no discussion to be had.

Bombing a refugee camp is terrorism.
Not legitimate.
A war crime.

Bombing anything is legitimate if it becomes a legitimate military target.

But they didn't bomb the refugee camp though, did they.
Yes, they did
Your problem is that you uncritically swallow Hamas lies.

I don't accept the lies from the IDF, as you do. 40 beheaded babies?

You might want to ask yourself why you'd sooner believe Islamists who want to wipe out Western civilisation than Jewish democrats.

Bullshit. I look at both sides.
Israel is not democratic. They will not allow Palestinians the right to return and vote.

[Strontium Dog]

Israel is not democratic. They will not allow Palestinians the right to return and vote.

They're Palestinians, they can vote in Palestine.

Well, they can't at the moment, but you know - elect anti-democratic Islamist nutters, get anti-democratic Islamism...

[L'Emmerdeur]

Bernie Sanders is an anti-semite!

U.S. Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) said in a statement Friday that "while the world is understandably focused on the destruction unfolding in Gaza, we should not lose sight of what is happening in the West Bank—actions which are in violation of both American and international law."

"Let's be clear: The right-wing, extremist Netanyahu government is not only breaking international law in Gaza, they are doing the same in the West Bank, where they are pursuing illegal annexation by force," said Sanders. "Netanyahu should be facing serious consequences for these violations, not receiving an invitation to address a joint session of Congress."

[source]

[rainbow]

Israel is not democratic. They will not allow Palestinians the right to return and vote.

They're Palestinians, they can vote in Palestine.

Well, they can't at the moment, but you know - elect anti-democratic Islamist nutters, get anti-democratic Islamism...

Elect anti-democratic Zionist nutters, get perpetual war

[Svartalf]

I dunno what propaganda young israelis go through during military service, but it seems very efficient in making them believe that an armed response is the ideal solution to any problem...