What Libertarians Do

[Robert_S]

Internet vs EMP.

Hmmmm....

[Drewish]

Internet vs EMP.

Hmmmm....

Millions of redundant hard drives spread throughout the world > books in a central library. Just ask Hypatia.

EDIT -

Seriously, are you all REALLY arguing that libraries are better means of safe guarding or distributing information? I mean that's... just not true. Like objectively not true.

[Svartalf]

I just wish we had something more durable than magnetic drives or papyrus to keep those books on.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I just wish we had something more durable than magnetic drives or papyrus to keep those books on.

They're working on storing information "holographically" in crystals. This would be at the molecular level so a crystal one foot in all directions would hold every English-language book now existing.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I would park a library of the crystals at the libration points on the assumption that "someone else" will make it out there some day.

[eXcommunicate]

Why be a libertarian? Because it's fucking manly to rely on yourself. Because it's damn enlightening to think for yourself instead of regurgitating some bronze age religion or that bullshit propaganda they teach you in school. Because it's the shit to own guns, smoke and drink what you like, and have sex without guilt. Because it's smart to go to school to learn a trade and get a decent job, instead of doing some easily replaceable service or manufacturing job or becoming an over educated schmuck who thinks that their liberal arts degree actually taught them anything useful. Be a libertarian because it's fucking awesome and because the truth and being honest with yourself is more important and more powerful than any guilt or fear based dogma that society tries to impose on you. Stand up for freedom. Stand up for yourself. Be a fucking awesome libertarian!

No no no.... you're thinking of LIBRARIANS.

I like librarians through a bit obsolete these days, public sector workers dedicated to the education of the people, guardians and protectors of knowledge

Sounds like an ancient college of Roman priests.

[Coito ergo sum]

Not convinced people who are hire gardeners are 'middle class', they are definitely people with a lot of money spare

It's very common in the U.S.

Yes but as I understand it people in the U.S. don't even pack their own shopping bags in the supermarket.

Lazy buggers.

My favored supermarket not only has baggers for the groceries, but they provide options of paper bags, or plastic bags, or reusable "environmentally friendly" bags. They'll bag the stuff up, and they ask each customer if that customer would like them to wheel the cart out to the car for them. I think that's meant for the elderly and the infirm, but they ask even able bodied folks so that nobody bitches. They'll help people load their vehicles with the groceries too, and wheel the empty cart back to the store.

That same store takes groceries back, and returns cash, without a receipt, for any reason. They want to know the reason, but even if you don't have a reason, and even if the product is fine, they'll accept the returned items. No problem. No receipt necessary.

[Coito ergo sum]

Not convinced people who are hire gardeners are 'middle class', they are definitely people with a lot of money spare

This is absolutely untrue.

As others have said, gardeners (well, they garden less than they mow lawns, blow leaves, and trim the odd branch) are the norm in many middle-class suburban areas.

I have a gardener for my front yard, even if only because it's part of my homeowner's association dues and the company that does it does the whole tract. When I was growing up we always had one, a nice old Japanese man who mowed our grass once a week for about 15 years, and we were far from well-off.

I think this varies greatly by what area of the country you're talking about. Here in Indiana the vast majority of middle-class people mow their own lawns and get on their own hands and knees and work their own gardens. It also depends upon your definition of "middle-class," which is mired in some controversy.

True 'nuff - I'm speaking of course from my personal experiences living in various places in California.

Your California experience is consistent with New York, Connecticut, Florida and Michigan - in my experience.

[Coito ergo sum]

Why be a libertarian? Because it's fucking manly to rely on yourself. Because it's damn enlightening to think for yourself instead of regurgitating some bronze age religion or that bullshit propaganda they teach you in school. Because it's the shit to own guns, smoke and drink what you like, and have sex without guilt. Because it's smart to go to school to learn a trade and get a decent job, instead of doing some easily replaceable service or manufacturing job or becoming an over educated schmuck who thinks that their liberal arts degree actually taught them anything useful. Be a libertarian because it's fucking awesome and because the truth and being honest with yourself is more important and more powerful than any guilt or fear based dogma that society tries to impose on you. Stand up for freedom. Stand up for yourself. Be a fucking awesome libertarian!

No no no.... you're thinking of LIBRARIANS.

I'm a Libationer.

[Warren Dew]

My favored supermarket not only has baggers for the groceries, but they provide options of paper bags, or plastic bags, or reusable "environmentally friendly" bags. They'll bag the stuff up, and they ask each customer if that customer would like them to wheel the cart out to the car for them. I think that's meant for the elderly and the infirm, but they ask even able bodied folks so that nobody bitches. They'll help people load their vehicles with the groceries too, and wheel the empty cart back to the store.

My nearest supermarket likes to wheel the cart out to the car for us and wheel the empty cart back to the store because in their neighborhood, unattended shopping carts get stolen.

[MrJonno]

My favored supermarket not only has baggers for the groceries, but they provide options of paper bags, or plastic bags, or reusable "environmentally friendly" bags. They'll bag the stuff up, and they ask each customer if that customer would like them to wheel the cart out to the car for them. I think that's meant for the elderly and the infirm, but they ask even able bodied folks so that nobody bitches. They'll help people load their vehicles with the groceries too, and wheel the empty cart back to the store.

My nearest supermarket likes to wheel the cart out to the car for us and wheel the empty cart back to the store because in their neighborhood, unattended shopping carts get stolen.

Don't they get locked together and released with deposit (£1 here)

[redunderthebed]

I saw dozens of cases like that when I worked as a counselor in an adolescent rehab facility. Many of them suffered from years of abuse and neglect first by their parents, then by the so-called social services and healthcare providers.

I was friends with a person you described he was forced to see counsellors etc. Now he sees them as scum and will never visit one voluntarily when goddamn he has enough issues to keep the local mental ward open for years.

Not convinced people who are hire gardeners are 'middle class', they are definitely people with a lot of money spare

It's very common in the U.S.

It's common here too i used to work for a company that did it and we always always had jobs to do.

public sector workers dedicated to the education of the people, guardians and protectors of knowledge

A-fucking-men and the best defence against the book burners and the anti-intellectuals.

Knowledge is power.

Art is awesome should be subsidised should be open for all and is. Its just that right-wingers and others are anti-intellectual hence their attack on art and for good reason if people used their mind they would reject the simplistic horseshit that is foisted on them every time a election comes around.

[hadespussercats]

The Arts are supported big time by government subsidies, at least here in Europe. Would Shakespeare ever be shown if it was all down to simple supply and demand? Would it matter?

If there isn't a demand for the Bard, why should he be shown? I'm serious-- this isn't rhetorical.

Regardless, I think there's plenty of demand to see Shakespeare in England. People travel in from around the world to do it.

I'm torn about arts funding, generally. On one hand, I see arts funding as a sign that a government is enlightened enough to want to foster work and to make sure that audiences that might not have access to culture get a chance to see it and be a part of it. On the other hand, if that means (and it too often does) that the government gets to dictate content, their help really might be more trouble than it's worth. Are arts so weak on their own that they can't survive without government support? Clearly not-- culture/entertainment is one of the US's most valuable exports.

Maybe the movies, music, Broadway musicals, and so forth that make the most money and win the most popular success seem too low-brow to certain proponents of governmental subsidies. I don't know.

I can tell you the Met Opera gets an enormous grant from the NEA each year, and still orchestra seats would cost us a month's rent. There are some rush ticket bargains, and the occasional inner-city school is invited to watch final dress rehearsal, but I really wonder who's benefiting most from that government subsidy. Yes, there are backstage workers who actually get paid a decent wage. But it's still mostly entertainment for the rich.

I don't know. I'm spitballing here.

[hadespussercats]

The Arts are supported big time by government subsidies, at least here in Europe. Would Shakespeare ever be shown if it was all down to simple supply and demand? Would it matter?

Good question and to be honest I think one of Elitism. It seems to me they are getting subsidies under the guise of "bringing the arts to the masses" of whom about 7 are interested in such, but really they want it subsidised because they would often not be profitable to produce on behalf of a tiny percentage of the population, but that tiny percent are the ones who really want to keep it an exclusive club, despite their claims.

Trust me, if a bunch of Chavs wanted to go and see an ethnic contemporary dance production about the dangers of Female genital mutilation, they probably wouldn't even get past the doorway of the ICA.

Should they be subsidised? I don't think so. Would it mean less art in our schools and theatres, perhaps, but honestly, I don't think anyone outside of a percentage of Guardian and Telegraph readers care whether it is or not.

There is an element of elitism I agree with you, but I deliberately avoided that word in my comment because it is elitism with a difference. I am not a cultural relativist. Macbeth is better than East Enders. Mozart is better than Boyzone as far as I am concerned.

So maybe it is about education rather than entertainment for the elite. It is that too no doubt, but I will never forget taking my daughter to see Midsummer Night's Dream in Stratford on Avon when we lived near there, when she was about 8. Her face lit up and she enjoyed Shakespeare from that day on. And we aren't part of any elite unless you call a middle class guy with a decent education that.

I'm glad you made this point re- elitism and Shakespeare. I think enough people care about his work that it would still get produced at universities and such, even if it weren't government-subsidized.

What worries me re- government support of the arts isn't so much the big playhouses and opera houses and philharmonics-- though I do care about them. But I worry more about arts funding being chopped from public school budgets because it is perceived as frivolous.

I know you know this, Rum, I'm saying this generally: arts programs are an asset to other learning, with ties to history, literature, music comprehension, hands-on work, collaborative work and learning, etc., etc. Students who may have difficulty keying in to other academic subjects may find a way in through the arts-- a desire to excel that feeds from artistic endeavors back into other work. And arts education is practical, too. Most of the people I know here in the city are making hteir living in the arts, so I don't understand why it's such a popular trope that students should forget about the arts and focus on what will get them a job.

Okay, this is a derail. A bit.

Libertarians don't support publicly-funded schooling in the first place, do they?

[laklak]

Our local supermarket forces old people and Mongoloids to bag the groceries. S'truth. Many of the "bagboys" are retards, some are even old crumbly retards. Calling them "bagboys" when they also force old ladies to bag the groceries, how sexist is that? Now, I was talking to an old crumbly the other day as I was forcing him to walk my cart out to my car. He said he had been in banking for almost 50 years, retired as a branch manager and bought a house on the golf course. Then his wife up and died, and he got lonely and bored, so he decided to get a job a couple of days a week bagging groceries. Said he enjoyed talking to people and helping the old ladies with their groceries, and then pointed to a crumbly old woman working the till and said "I'm taking her out to dinner at Ceviche this weekend". Yeah, like that's true. He's actually slave labor, forced to toil in a menial job by his harsh, Libertarian, Corporate taskmasters. Ain't no way he can afford to eat at Ceviche, fucking place will set 2 people back a C note without wine. If he falls over dead while pushing carts they'll just sweep him under the nearest Humvee and hand his employee card to the next Mong in line. This same grocery chain claims to have a program to help kids pay for university tuition. I know one kid who says he worked 15 hours a week for them for three years and they gave him a total of $10,000 in scholarship money, as well as paying him $2 an hour over minimum wage and providing him health insurance, but that's obviously a lie. No American corporation would do anything like that, fucking ever. Both of them have been brainwashed by their Libbo masters. They actually think they WANT to do that menial, unrewarding, degrading work.

Then there's the old fucking fart I pay a pittance to mow my lawn. Claims he owned a machine shop up in Ohio before he retired, but "got bored" sitting on his ass in Florida so he started a lawn company. Has a couple of other old farts working with him. Riiiight. Like he actually wants to mow my lawn for $35. No, it's just another case of nasty, cold-hearted Libertarians taking advantage of old people by denying them a decent pension. Just another smoke screen for the Radical Right's nefarious plan to enslave all the kids and old people and keep all the money for themselves.

No, none of that Libbo shit for me anymore, I've seen the light. We need to make it fucking ILLEGAL for these people to be hired. We need to put them in a nice, homey place where they can have Wednesday sing-a-longs and get chicken on Friday. And all the state-sponsored Shakespeare they want. It's all for their own good, and if they don't like it we have medications that can help them cope.