Unarmed teen shooting: Is Florida law to blame?

[FBM]

mistermack, sorry if it looked like I was aiming that post directly at you. I wasn't. It was aimed at those who are already dead-certain as to what happened on that night and who is to blame.

[Santa_Claus]

Suicide.

[kiki5711]

For example, a possibility you seem to have overlooked is the possibility that Zimmerman was taking a beating from the kid, while still in possession of his weapon and reluctant to use it, but finally saw no other recourse but to use it in self-defense. I'm not saying that this is what happened, but only that it's another logical possibility left open by the evidence, but widely ignored by many.

This scenario does not line up with the timely known evidence that we do have at this point.

First of all, zimmerman did not follow orders by the dispatcher to stop following, he continued to follow Trayvon thinking as he said "these assholes always get away with it". In my opinion that shows that in his mind "he was going to take care of this suspected burgler" before the cops arrive.

In order to have used the gun in self defense it would mean that Trayvon got close enough to him to threaten him to beat him and which point zimmerman would have drawn the gun and shot. But what evidence shows that there was some kind of attack and there were desperate screems for help. If you had a gun in your hand, you wouldn't be screaming desperately for help because you'd have the upper hand with the gun pointing.

Zimmerman could have just yelled stop! what are you doing here? and maintain a conversation to determine if Trayvon was a dangerous criminal or just a person walking home or visiting someone in that neighborhood. Instead he decided he was going to be the vigilante and judge and jury and the executioner of whatever was in him mind.

[mistermack]

mistermack, sorry if it looked like I was aiming that post directly at you. I wasn't. It was aimed at those who are already dead-certain as to what happened on that night and who is to blame.

Fair enough. It did look like that, coming straight after my post, but reading it again, it doesn't say that.

I still think that the majority are only going over-the-top in response to the police decision not to charge him, which I think is quite extraordinary in the circumstances.
None of the subsequent Grand Jury proceedings would have happened without the public outrage and over-the-top reaction, so that in itself is justification enough.

It seems like justice doesn't happen automatically in Florida, only if you make enough noise.
That's why the Police Chief had to go.

[FBM]

For example, a possibility you seem to have overlooked is the possibility that Zimmerman was taking a beating from the kid, while still in possession of his weapon and reluctant to use it, but finally saw no other recourse but to use it in self-defense. I'm not saying that this is what happened, but only that it's another logical possibility left open by the evidence, but widely ignored by many.

This scenario does not line up with the timely known evidence that we do have at this point.

That depends on how you analyze the available evidence. My only point is that the various way people have so far been using the available evidence is to bolster their pre-existing emotional/political biases.

First of all, zimmerman did not follow orders by the dispatcher to stop following, he continued to follow Trayvon thinking as he said "these assholes always get away with it". In my opinion that shows that in his mind "he was going to take care of this suspected burgler" before the cops arrive.

"We don't need you to do that" is not equivalent to a direct order such as, "Don't do that."

In order to have used the gun in self defense it would mean that Trayvon got close enough to him to threaten him to beat him and which point zimmerman would have drawn the gun and shot. But what evidence shows that there was some kind of attack and there were desperate screems for help. If you had a gun in your hand, you wouldn't be screaming desperately for help because you'd have the upper hand with the gun pointing.

And this could equally well be evidence that Zimmerman didn't have his gun in his hand at the moment of contact, but instead pulled it only as a last resort. Again, I don't know which is true; I'm only saying that the available evidence is not yet conclusive and that the proper rational response is to suspend judgement until conclusive evidence is found.

Zimmerman could have just yelled stop! what are you doing here? and maintain a conversation to determine if Trayvon was a dangerous criminal or just a person walking home or visiting someone in that neighborhood. Instead he decided he was going to be the vigilante and judge and jury and the executioner of whatever was in him mind.

Again, you've already convicted him. You're making huge assumptions, just as the others are who are defending Zimmerman, without decisive evidence. You are, for example, assuming that Martin didn't jump Zimmerman from a dark shadow, precluding any chance to start, much less maintain, a conversation. I don't know that he did; you don't know that he didn't. What's so hard about suspending judgement for a little while until all the relevant evidence has been collected and analyzed? Why the rush to convice in the court of public opinion? Would you want this sort of attention paid to your own husband or child, or would you, in a similar situation, want people to weigh the evidence rationally and scientifically without prejudice?

[tattuchu]

He didn't have his gun in his hand. Just because he had a gun, doesn't mean he had it drawn. The story I read, and it may be utter bullshit mind you, but the story I read stated that Zimmerman was on the ground being beaten by Martin, and that this was corroborated by witnesses. His gun was holstered under his shirt. Zimmerman called out for help but to no avail. During the altercation Zimmerman's shirt rode up, revealing his gun. Martin grabbed for it, a struggle ensued, Zimmerman either regained or maintained control of the gun, and shot Martin in self-defense.
Even assuming all of that is true, and that's a huge IF, we can still say that none of this would have happened in the first place if Zimmerman didn't pursue and accost Martin. My point was that if details like the above are true, then it reveals a slightly more complicated picture than what was originally portrayed. At this point, however, I find my myself hesitant to believe anything as fact. It's all a jumble of sometimes contradictory evidence, evidence that needs to be sorted out to determine what's true and what's false.
My personal opinion is that I lean toward Zimmerman being mostly if not completely at fault. But I have doubts, and would like to see how the evidence plays out. I'm not ready to string up Zimmerman just yet. I need more information before I pass judgement. I'm not a racist and certainly don't think Martin was guilty of anything just because he was black. But, even though I'm fairly liberal, I don't think he was necessarily completely innocent just because he was black either.

[FBM]

mistermack, sorry if it looked like I was aiming that post directly at you. I wasn't. It was aimed at those who are already dead-certain as to what happened on that night and who is to blame.

Fair enough. It did look like that, coming straight after my post, but reading it again, it doesn't say that.

I still think that the majority are only going over-the-top in response to the police decision not to charge him, which I think is quite extraordinary in the circumstances.
None of the subsequent Grand Jury proceedings would have happened without the public outrage and over-the-top reaction, so that in itself is justification enough.

It seems like justice doesn't happen automatically in Florida, only if you make enough noise.
That's why the Police Chief had to go.

And if it eventually turns out that the Police Chief lost his position despite the fact that he was justified in his behavior, he will have been crucified by public opinion, rather than as the result of a rational, evidence-based evaluation of his competence. It was too soon and for the wrong reasons.

[mistermack]

And if it eventually turns out that the Police Chief lost his position despite the fact that he was justified in his behavior, he will have been crucified by public opinion, rather than as the result of a rational, evidence-based evaluation of his competence. It was too soon and for the wrong reasons.

He wasn't sacked, he resigned.
And whatever really happened that night, nothing can make that investigation into a proper one.

It clearly wasn't taken seriously at all, as a possible murder. So it's quite right that he went, whatever subsequently happens. And he shouldn't be the only one.

[FBM]

The key point is in your post: "whatever happened that night", which connotes a lack of certain knowledge as to what actually occurred that night at that place between those two people. Which includes whatever the police experienced when they got to the scene, and which no one but the people there at the time know in detail. Therefore, based on the evidence at hand, his resignation in the face of public pressure, rather than evidence, could easily be seen as him having been convicted by public opinion, rather than by any incriminating evidence.

OR, it could be interpreted as him having knowledge that he acted inappropriately and resigned in guilt. But that isn't known, either. It depends on how you interpret the event, and which, as far as I can see, is a decision most people here are making on emotional or political prejudices rather than on the available evidence. That, to me, is revealing as to how poor even we sceptics are at applying scepticism to real life.

I mean, fine, we are sceptical about the existence of a supernatural sky-fairy and all the miraculous woo that involves, but that's a chip-shot, innit? How about applying that same scepticism to real-life, daily events?

[mistermack]

Well, I am.
I'm applying my scepticism to the status quo, which was that Zimmerman had no case to answer.

If Zimmerman was in jail, and everyone was saying he should get the death penalty, I would be saying he should get a fair trial.

Just like what I'm saying now.

I'm arguing against the official view that he had no case to answer.

[kiki5711]

I read stated that Zimmerman was on the ground being beaten by Martin, and that this was corroborated by witnesses.

you read that in the paper or it's actual witness that came forth and described as such? Link please?

[Seth]

I still think that the crime occurred when Zimmerman stepped out of his vehicle, armed. He has no authority, was told by the authorities not to do that, and instead willfully chose to create a confrontation while armed.

He had the authority that every citizen has to police their community, which happens to be very nearly identical to that of a police officer when a crime is being committed in their presence. He certainly had authority to follow and even approach and question a stranger in his gated private community.

He was under NO obligation to listen to the ADVICE of the dispatcher, who did not "tell" him to do or not do anything and has no authority to do so to begin with, as I explained previously.

And he has a right to be armed, and a right to confront a potential burglar in his private community. He would be stupid to confront a potential burglar WITHOUT being armed.

What happened after that is what's in contention, but nothing he did up to the point where he confronted Martin was in the least bit illegal or improper, and he had ever right to do so.

That you do not understand the law, or don't want to accept what the law is, is not really relevant.

[Santa_Claus]

The black fella may have had every right to be there - but no business to be there.

My bet is that he was taking a short cut and casing the area out for the future (and probably quite willing to make the most of any targets of opportunity)......IMO Zimmerman did the right thing in keeping tabs on him - that's what the community wanted him to do. Probably also well aware that the PoPo would probably arrive around Thanksgiving - unless someone was murdered or butt fucked.

Having said that, I do find it strange that Zimmeran / the shooting was not fully and formally investigated by da PoPo (and that doesn't require anyone to be arrested, let alone charged) - even if the result is that insufficient evidence to charge at least the facts that the decision was based on would be formally on the record (to be argued over / added to in the future). But the US has a strange legal system......

[kiki5711]

I still think that the crime occurred when Zimmerman stepped out of his vehicle, armed. He has no authority, was told by the authorities not to do that, and instead willfully chose to create a confrontation while armed.

He had the authority that every citizen has to police their community, which happens to be very nearly identical to that of a police officer when a crime is being committed in their presence. He certainly had authority to follow and even approach and question a stranger in his gated private community.

He was under NO obligation to listen to the ADVICE of the dispatcher, who did not "tell" him to do or not do anything and has no authority to do so to begin with, as I explained previously.

And he has a right to be armed, and a right to confront a potential burglar in his private community. He would be stupid to confront a potential burglar WITHOUT being armed.

What happened after that is what's in contention, but nothing he did up to the point where he confronted Martin was in the least bit illegal or improper, and he had ever right to do so.

That you do not understand the law, or don't want to accept what the law is, is not really relevant.

Well hello Mr. Seth, you holiness. You're smarter than anyone I ever met. Listen to your "blabbering" er I mean reasoning for everything that took place that fateful night.

[kiki5711]

The black fella may have had every right to be there - but no business to be there.

My bet is that he was taking a short cut and casing the area out for the future (and probably quite willing to make the most of any targets of opportunity)......IMO Zimmerman did the right thing in keeping tabs on him - that's what the community wanted him to do. Probably also well aware that the PoPo would probably arrive around Thanksgiving - unless someone was murdered or butt fucked.
..

Don't ever come around my neighborhood. We don't allow stupid people here.