Fast Food Worker Strikes!

[laklak]

Drop all subsidies and let the market set the price. It's very good at doing that, when left alone.

[piscator]

Would you go into a fast food restaurant to order a hamburger if you knew it would cost you over $50? Would you order steak in a fancy restaurant if you knew it was going to cost you over $200? In truth that’s already what you are paying. When is the price you pay not the price you pay? When the government helps to foot the bill.

The U.S. government subsidizes the beef industry. The government subsidies are for corn to feed the animals and water and land for them to graze on. If the beef industry had to pay fair market value for these resources, a Happy Meal would turn into an Unhappy Meal very quickly. Those subsidies are funded by taxes collected from the American taxpayer – that’s you and me. And it doesn’t matter whether you are vegetarian, vegan, pescetarian (those who eat fish, but no other meats) or belong to any sect, creed, religion or faith that prevents eating certain kinds of meat, you are not exempt: if you live in the U.S and pay taxes here, you’re paying for that big, juicy, $50 Big Mac along with the rest of us.

Sixty three percent of the U.S. government food subsidies go directly or indirectly to subsidize the meat and dairy industries. Less than 1 percent goes to fruit and vegetable cultivation. Less than 2 percent goes to nut and legume cultivation. Stopping meat subsidies would raise meat prices dramatically. If I cannot afford meat I will not buy meat; However, I could buy fruits and vegetables if the decreased governmental subsidy for meat is used to subsidize fruits, vegetables, nuts and legumes. Shifting subsidies will help provide healthy and affordable diet choices for all Americans.

http://usmfreepress.org/2013/04/29/meat ... -the-bone/



Isn't Seth in the cattle business? If so, that would mean he gets more than most others for his tax dollar.

[MrJonno]

Seth the great capitalist taking more of the state that a 100 crack whore lesbian single mothers

[JimC]

Seth the great capitalist taking more of the state that a 100 crack whore lesbian single mothers

[Seth]

When you use taxpayer money to make it possible for feedlots to buy corn and other grains for less that the farmer pays to grow it, you're subsidizing the feedlot more than you are the farmer.

Wanna come up with something other than an ex-recto assertion that this happens?

"The abundance of feed corn in this country contributes to the economic viability of producing grain-fed cattle."

http://www.beefusa.org/uDocs/Feedlot%20 ... 6%2006.pdf

Which comprise what percentage of the cattle crop?

Comex Corn closed @ 4.54/bu on 9/25/2013.

In 2009, average US yield/acre was 161bu/ac (it's close to that today)


$4.54 * 161= $730.94
$730.94 - $832 = -$101.06/ac before corn subsidies.


A feedlot who bought Sept 25 corn in June paid $0.63 less per bushel than it cost a highly productive 600ac American farm to produce it.

But the USDA insures the farmer against that sort of thing, and this year the farmer will collect ~$170/ac in subsidized crop insurance...
http://www.rma.usda.gov/fields/nc_rso/2009/2009corn.pdf

...so he clears ~$69/ac before other subsidies and tax breaks kick in.


Deficiency Payments
Direct Payments
Production Flexibility Contracts
Estimated Direct Payments
Crop Insurance Premium Subsidies
Price Support Payments (Loan Deficiency, Marketing Loan Gains, and Certificates)
Counter-Cyclical Programs
Market Loss Assistance
Other Corn Programs

Why do you suppose that is?

Anyway, I'm no fan of agricultural subsidies but I do understand why the government would want to protect a strategic resource like the nations food-production capacity.

[piscator]

I only owe for what I use by way of public resources and absolutely nothing else!

You owe the taxpayers New York and Chicago and LA for your family's entire way of life, Seth.

If corn were not subsidized, beef would be a hell of a lot more expensive.
If beef were expensive, there'd be a lot less market for it.
If there were a much smaller market, there'd be less need for cattle ranchers.

Without the high income city taxpayers supporting them as cattlemen, a historical family of Texas egg suckers from N. of Ft Worth would have been too busy chopping cotton for migrant wages to sit around developing Libertarian leanings.

[Seth]

I only owe for what I use by way of public resources and absolutely nothing else!

You owe the taxpayers New York and Chicago and LA for your family's entire way of life, Seth.

Nope.

If corn were not subsidized, beef would be a hell of a lot more expensive.
If beef were expensive, there'd be a lot less market for it.
If there were a much smaller market, there'd be less need for cattle ranchers.

Sorry, wrong. My beef was all-natural, organic grass-fed. No corn involved.

Without the high income city taxpayers supporting them as cattlemen, a historical family of Texas egg suckers from N. of Ft Worth would have been too busy chopping cotton for migrant wages to sit around developing Libertarian leanings.

Prove it.

[Warren Dew]

If corn were not subsidized, beef would be a hell of a lot more expensive.
If beef were expensive, there'd be a lot less market for it.
If there were a much smaller market, there'd be less need for cattle ranchers.

Ranchers graze their cattle on grass. If corn were not subsidized, some of the feedlots would go out of business, but ranchers would actually benefit from the higher beef prices since their costs would not change.

[piscator]

If corn were not subsidized, beef would be a hell of a lot more expensive.
If beef were expensive, there'd be a lot less market for it.
If there were a much smaller market, there'd be less need for cattle ranchers.

Ranchers graze their cattle on grass. If corn were not subsidized, some of the feedlots would go out of business, but ranchers would actually benefit from the higher beef prices since their costs would not change.

The frozen concept fallacy is strong in this one...



You forgot about the higher price of grass fed beef decreasing demand for same, hence the demand for cattlemen, as the country confronts $19/lb hamburger meat.

[Warren Dew]

You forgot about the higher price of grass fed beef decreasing demand for same, hence the demand for cattlemen, as the country confronts $19/lb hamburger meat.

Actually, the higher price for grass fed beef would be driven by increased demand for grass fed beef, not decreased demand. The causal chain would go like this:

Higher cost of grain causes higher cost of producing grain finished beef.
Higher cost of grain finished beef causes higher prices for grain finished beef.
Higher price of grain finished beef causes some consumers to switch to grass fed beef.
Consumers switching to grass fed beef causes increased demand for grass fed beef.
Increased demand for grass fed beef causes increased prices for grass fed beef.

Feed lot operators would suffer as demand and margin for grain finished beef fall, but ranchers would be fine as demand and margin for grass fed beef rises.

By the way, your own figures say that corn prices would only increase by less than 15%, so commercial grade hamburger will still be only a couple dollars a pound.

[piscator]

:

Higher cost of grain causes higher cost of producing grain finished beef.
Higher cost of grain finished beef causes higher prices for grain finished beef.
Higher price of grain finished beef causes some consumers to switch to grass fed beef.
Consumers switching to grass fed beef causes increased demand for grass fed beef.
Increased demand for grass fed beef causes increased prices for grass fed beef.

Is this the same guy who previously argued the demand for labor at McDonald's would drop if the minimum wage increased?

[Seth]

:

Higher cost of grain causes higher cost of producing grain finished beef.
Higher cost of grain finished beef causes higher prices for grain finished beef.
Higher price of grain finished beef causes some consumers to switch to grass fed beef.
Consumers switching to grass fed beef causes increased demand for grass fed beef.
Increased demand for grass fed beef causes increased prices for grass fed beef.

Is this the same guy who previously argued the demand for labor at McDonald's would drop if the minimum wage increased?

Er, I think the argument is that the demand for unskilled, entry-level workers drops as the minimum wage increases, which is a known fact of economics, as demonstrated by the 45 percent unemployment of black youth in metropolitan areas.

Employers aren't going to pay $15 an hour for some droopy-pants dreadlocked 17 year old thug with a bad attitude (or even a good one) if they can get an experienced and reliable adult employee for the same price.

[Coito ergo sum]

...and, some tasks are only with $X to an employer. Multiply that by 3 and economic pressure is exerted against demand.

[Warren Dew]

Higher cost of grain causes higher cost of producing grain finished beef.
Higher cost of grain finished beef causes higher prices for grain finished beef.
Higher price of grain finished beef causes some consumers to switch to grass fed beef.
Consumers switching to grass fed beef causes increased demand for grass fed beef.
Increased demand for grass fed beef causes increased prices for grass fed beef.

Is this the same guy who previously argued the demand for labor at McDonald's would drop if the minimum wage increased?

Yes.

A minimum wage increase increases the costs at McDonald's, so demand will drop.

A corn price increase increases the costs for corn finished beef, so demand will drop.

A corn price increase doesn't change the costs for grass finished beef, so demand will not drop.

In addition, the price for corn finished beef will be higher relative to grass finished beef, so some of the demand for corn finished beef will shift to grass finished beef, resulting in an increase in demand for grass finished beef.

Corn finished beef and grass finished beef are not the same thing.

[piscator]

Higher cost of grain causes higher cost of producing grain finished beef.
Higher cost of grain finished beef causes higher prices for grain finished beef.
Higher price of grain finished beef causes some consumers to switch to grass fed beef.
Consumers switching to grass fed beef causes increased demand for grass fed beef.
Increased demand for grass fed beef causes increased prices for grass fed beef.

Is this the same guy who previously argued the demand for labor at McDonald's would drop if the minimum wage increased?

Yes.

A minimum wage increase increases the costs at McDonald's, so demand will drop.

You talk like labor is optional for McDonald's, but beef is required for consumers.

It's the other way around - Beef isn't necessary for consumers. Labor is necessary for McDonald's. Moreover, a minimum wage increase does not affect McDonald's relative cost of labor - they're still going to get it at rock bottom, and all their competitors will have to pay it too.

McDonald's isn't going to forego profits. Consumers have food options and will forego beef when it becomes relatively expensive. Halibut anyone?


Grass fed beef is expensive because slaughter cows weigh less, and grass fed beef needs to spend a month aging in cold storage before it's marketable. 6 weeks in a feedlot is cheaper than a month aging on a meathook in a refrigerator, and not solely because the same cow will weigh a couple hundred pounds more when finished on grain.
Cold storage is expensive as fuck, and inefficient because you can't optimize the space in a big refrigerator with hanging beef. So you have a big expensive power-hungry refrigerator that you can only fill 50%.
Then you have supply chain costs. It's not like slaughterhouses have acres and acres of refrigerators to handle a month's production. No. Sides of beef have to be shipped around in half-full trucks of swinging hanging beef sides. Not only is that inefficient trucking, but the inertia of swinging beef is dangerous and expensive to insure because trucks are more likely to roll over. It's no mystery why the world beef industry switched to grain fed 40 or 50 years ago: it's much more profitable.


So we have Warren and CES thinking that labor is optional for McDonald's business, and Seth who thinks he can skip feeding his cows on hardscrabble Texas Panhandle pasture and still produce a marketable product. Absolutely bygod brilliant, boys.