Germany Second

[pErvinalia]

What you wrote was perfectly clear. You claimed that a leftist "is generally at least a socialist, if not a communist, in economic and social theory". That's bullshit. And you stated numerous times that you and other liberals weren't opposed to the idea of import taxes. If that's the case, then neither you nor those other people are liberals. Economic liberalism is about reducing barriers to trade, not increasing them.

[Forty Two]

What you wrote was perfectly clear. You claimed that a leftist "is generally at least a socialist, if not a communist, in economic and social theory". That's bullshit. And you stated numerous times that you and other liberals weren't opposed to the idea of import taxes. If that's the case, then neither you nor those other people are liberals. Economic liberalism is about reducing barriers to trade, not increasing them. :f.:

If it's bullshit, then what is your definition of a leftist?

Are you saying leftism means or can mean an ideology supporting free market capitalism and free trade, and which opposes socialism?\

This is a complex issue, full of thorny potentials for disagreement based on a difference in definitions. For example, sometimes "liberal" is thought to mean "on the left" -- which I would tend to agree with, in terms of liberal belief in freedom, egalitarianism, individual rights, etc. However, I would not characterize it as "leftist." Some people call liberal ideas "right wing" when they are ideas of individual liberty which are not particularly liked. For example, libertarians, who are very liberal in many respects, are often painted as near fascist by persons who stake their claim to leftist politics. Leftists are generally anti-libertarian, because libertarians tend to favor liberal economic policies, whereas leftists tend to favor authoritarian economic policies.

So, that's the distinction I'm drawing -- while liberal may be sometimes defined as "on the left" -- liberalism is not "leftist." And, leftist tends to the socialist concept of highly regulated economies, or socialist economies, because they tend to be authoritarian when it comes to economics.

When you say you can't be liberal and support import tariffs, I think you're wrong about that. While a liberal will generally want liberal economic policies, there are pragmatic concerns when you are dealing with two or more radically disparate types of economies or states. For example, a free market economy can't simply have open, unregulated, untaxed borders with an extreme socialist economy. A liberal in that case would not have to advocate for the elimination of all taxes and tariffs in that situation to remain liberal, because there are bigger issues than tariffs that need to be resolved before you can just open the border.

[Forty Two]

To add to that, the complexity arises when one notes that "the left" is said to include ideologies that encompass freedom, rights, individual liberty, etc., but then political scientists characterize "socialism" as a leftist philosophy. If one looks into, say, Marxist socialism, there is very little in there that has anything to do with freedom, rights, or liberty, etc. Yet, both anarchists and socialists are both on the left. And, often libertarians share some views with anarchists, but yet libertarians are often labeled far right, along with nationalists like fascists.

[JimC]

Very few people these days would subscribe to a purist definition of socialism/marxism, where private enterprise is forbidden, and the state owns and controls the means of production. Mostly the debate centres on the degree to which central government should exercise control over corporations and the economy generally, and the extent of government services to the public. These form a graded spectrum; in a democratic system, if the system moves too far away from the majority viewpoint, then the next election may provide a correction.

[pErvinalia]

What you wrote was perfectly clear. You claimed that a leftist "is generally at least a socialist, if not a communist, in economic and social theory". That's bullshit. And you stated numerous times that you and other liberals weren't opposed to the idea of import taxes. If that's the case, then neither you nor those other people are liberals. Economic liberalism is about reducing barriers to trade, not increasing them. :f.:

If it's bullshit, then what is your definition of a leftist?

Are you saying leftism means or can mean an ideology supporting free market capitalism and free trade, and which opposes socialism?\

This is a complex issue, full of thorny potentials for disagreement based on a difference in definitions. For example, sometimes "liberal" is thought to mean "on the left" -- which I would tend to agree with, in terms of liberal belief in freedom, egalitarianism, individual rights, etc. However, I would not characterize it as "leftist." Some people call liberal ideas "right wing" when they are ideas of individual liberty which are not particularly liked. For example, libertarians, who are very liberal in many respects, are often painted as near fascist by persons who stake their claim to leftist politics. Leftists are generally anti-libertarian, because libertarians tend to favor liberal economic policies, whereas leftists tend to favor authoritarian economic policies.

So, that's the distinction I'm drawing -- while liberal may be sometimes defined as "on the left" -- liberalism is not "leftist." And, leftist tends to the socialist concept of highly regulated economies, or socialist economies, because they tend to be authoritarian when it comes to economics.

Well, I don't think there is a definitive definition of "leftist", as it's pretty much a loose term like "right winger". But a leftist is clearly a left winger. Someone who is clearly on the left and not really a centrist. A leftist is no more necessarily a socialist than a right winger is necessarily a fascist. I'm a lefty, and I'm not a socialist or a communist. If I'm not those, and therefore not a leftist by your definition, then what am I?

When you say you can't be liberal and support import tariffs, I think you're wrong about that.

Ok, do you have an authoritative references to back that up? I've never heard of a liberal claiming import taxes are acceptable.

For example, a free market economy can't simply have open, unregulated, untaxed borders with an extreme socialist economy. A liberal in that case would not have to advocate for the elimination of all taxes and tariffs in that situation to remain liberal, because there are bigger issues than tariffs that need to be resolved before you can just open the border.

This doesn't make sense. It can't be both a "free market economy" and an "extreme socialist economy".