The Shadow of Munich Haunts the Iran Negotiations

[laklak]

Right wrong moral immoral sovereign nation arrogance blah blah blah. Fuck 'em and the camel they rode in on. Nuke 'em down to a sheet of radioactive glass, you could see it from the ISS. No point in being the big dog on the block if you don't occasionally piss on a little one.

[piscator]

It's not arrogant when we have the power to turn them into a grease spot and stand to lose if they screw things up. It's not arrogance for a gang leader to forbid one underling from jacking trucks in the South Side, and another from peddling dope on the West Side, it's a function of power, and within his remit.

Yes, if they were developing nuclear weapons.

No, if they are generating electricity only.

Granted, it is somewhat of a slippery slope...

If they were generating electricity only, even from nuclear plants, they wouldn't need their own reprocessing facilities. They could send their uranium ore overseas to be processed into nuclear fuel, same way they get their crude oil processed into gasoline.

That is true, certainly, but in the long run, it means less dependency on foreign countries, which, given their experience with sanctions, is something they would crave.

As a sovereign nation, surely they have the right to decide on which industries they will employ? (Having said that, I think it is reasonable for the international community to veto their right to develop or own nuclear weapons, for pragmatic reasons...)

The devil is in the details, specifically how certain the west can be that any agreed inspection regime would be robust enough to detect a covert ability to enrich Uranium to the 90% level required for a nuclear device.

Fuck them. They have zero need for nukes for the next 100 years. If they have a cultural need for nukes, they can staff their facilities completely with UN-approved personnel, or run the cultural risk of having those facilities destroyed before they are built. Darius is dead. Cultures who take hostages and stone infidels and adulterers have not demonstrated the necessary maturity to be entrusted with dangerous tools.

[mistermack]

They believe in the end of the world and are actively seeking nukes. Bad combination.

Agreed.




Sorry, are you talking about the US, or Iran?

[cronus]

The ones with the frocks MM. If you wait ten years they'll have built a stockpile, have loads more info on how to wage war - climate change will have ratcheted food pressures on a angry Iranian population its prime - ISIS will have a consolidated Pol-Pots killing deserts...it will be a worse mess for not acting. They'll be stronger and the stockpile of nukes will be matched on both sides but religion rather than rational ideology will determine the delivery, to be excessive. If you wait, it will be worse...

[mistermack]

I quite agree, but all of it applies equally to Israel.

As a sovereign nation, surely they have the right to decide on which industries they will employ? (Having said that, I think it is reasonable for the international community US to veto their right to develop or own nuclear weapons, for pragmatic ISRAELI reasons...)

[pErvinalia]

You can't seriously argue that it would be a good thing for a theocracy to acquire nukes, regardless of who has them at present.

[mistermack]

You can't seriously argue that it would be a good thing for a theocracy to acquire nukes, regardless of who has them at present.

Of course not, it's a bad thing. But it's equally bad for Israel and Iran to have them.
Why should Israel be disregarded in all this?

Doing nothing about Israel destroys the MORAL argument against Iran having nukes. Or anybody else. That's the point.

It's not just Iran. Sooner or later, other countries will want them. And they can all point at Israel for justification.

[cronus]

You can't seriously argue that it would be a good thing for a theocracy to acquire nukes, regardless of who has them at present.

Of course not, it's a bad thing. But it's equally bad for Israel and Iran to have them.
Why should Israel be disregarded in all this?

Doing nothing about Israel destroys the MORAL argument against Iran having nukes. Or anybody else. That's the point.

It's not just Iran. Sooner or later, other countries will want them. And they can all point at Israel for justification.

It is the crisis that will bring change (the crisis). Symmetry doesn't come into it. Allowing a stockpile of nukes to build on both sides will lead to uncontrollable consequences - most likely millions of unnecessary deaths on all sides. The good life in places far away, or business as usual, will be bought at the expense of mass unnecessary death later. A few nukes each well documented for their obvious tragedy value....better than 200 going off everywhere all on one day ten years from now.

[piscator]

I quite agree, but all of it applies equally to Israel.

As a sovereign nation, surely they have the right to decide on which industries they will employ? (Having said that, I think it is reasonable for the international community US to veto their right to develop or own nuclear weapons, for pragmatic ISRAELI reasons...)

Well, if you don't like it, go and take Israel's stolen nukes back to Tennessee. But, "We must have nukes so we can destroy Israel with no fear of nuclear retaliation because of MAD" is the argument the Iranians have been making for themselves for 20 years.

[mistermack]

Well, if you don't like it, go and take Israel's stolen nukes back to Tennessee. But, "We must have nukes so we can destroy Israel with no fear of nuclear retaliation because of MAD" is the argument the Iranians have been making for themselves for 20 years.

Don't be silly.

How does removing Israel's nukes remove the fear of nuclear retaliation?

[cronus]

Well, if you don't like it, go and take Israel's stolen nukes back to Tennessee. But, "We must have nukes so we can destroy Israel with no fear of nuclear retaliation because of MAD" is the argument the Iranians have been making for themselves for 20 years.

Don't be silly.

How does removing Israel's nukes remove the fear of nuclear retaliation?

Dealing with religious medieval folk...with mindsets adjacent to the worst of Domination Christianity. MAD would not work. They have unrealistic outcomes like a guy walking on the clouds.

[Galaxian]

I quite agree, but all of it applies equally to Israel

As a sovereign nation, surely they have the right to decide on which industries they will employ? (Having said that, I think it is reasonable for the international community US to veto their right to develop or own nuclear weapons, for pragmatic ISRAELI reasons...)

Well, if you don't like it, go and take Israel's stolen nukes back to Tennessee. But, "We must have nukes so we can destroy Israel with no fear of nuclear retaliation because of MAD" is the argument the Iranians have been making for themselves for 20 years.

Why are you lying?

[piscator]

Shut up. What do you think, "A World Without Zionism" means in Persian?