What should be done about Iran?

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Twiglet
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Re: What should be done about Iran?

Post by Twiglet » Tue Apr 20, 2010 3:46 am

Ian wrote:
Thing is, I don't know if the US can rein Israel in. They do not consider themselves to be a US puppet state, take my word for it.
Nonetheless they are almost entirely dependent on US aid, which they receive in vast quantities. It would not be easy, given the strength of the Israeli lobby in the US, to start turning off the financial taps, but were the US to do so, Israel would be in a pretty dreadful position economically. The last time that came close to happening is when Rabine got assassinated.

As it currently stands, why would the US try to rein them in? Israels militancy directly serves the US's agenda.

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Re: What should be done about Iran?

Post by Ian » Tue Apr 20, 2010 3:55 am

Twiglet wrote:
Ian wrote:
Thing is, I don't know if the US can rein Israel in. They do not consider themselves to be a US puppet state, take my word for it.
Nonetheless they are almost entirely dependent on US aid, which they receive in vast quantities. It would not be easy, given the strength of the Israeli lobby in the US, to start turning off the financial taps, but were the US to do so, Israel would be in a pretty dreadful position economically. The last time that came close to happening is when Rabine got assassinated.
It could happen though, if the US and Israel come to be at odds over so huge a move. In 1973 Israel considered preemptive strikes against Egypt and Syria sometime prior to the Yom Kippur War. Henry Kissinger made it abundantly clear that if Israel struck first again (after 1967), this time they'd be going it alone. And Israel knew they'd need US aid if they wound up in a war.
Is it hard to imagine the Obama administration saying something similar to a Likud government that envisions the need to launch a premptive nuclear strike on Iran? I don't think that's too much a stretch of the imagination.
As it currently stands, why would the US try to rein them in? Israels militancy directly serves the US's agenda.
True. To a degree. If Israel goes overboard, the US won't automatically condone their actions. Hell, we stayed well clear when they tore southern Lebanon to pieces only a few years ago.

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Re: What should be done about Iran?

Post by Twiglet » Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:07 am

Ian wrote: True. To a degree. If Israel goes overboard, the US won't automatically condone their actions. Hell, we stayed well clear when they tore southern Lebanon to pieces only a few years ago.
I agree with you on the nuclear angle, but not on Lebanon. Israel preplanned that invasion and hung it on the Shallit kidnapping purely as a matter of convenience. The US was notified about what would happen months in advance. The same is true (as recently came to light) of the then secret agreement between Bush & Israel over continuing construction of settlements. It matters very little what the US publicly states its opinion of Israels actions to be, when it is funding them, and providing arms for them:

The particular source I am quoting from may not be all that reliable, but I have read the same elsewhere, and am at googles mercy to supply the link:


http://www.consortiumnews.com/2006/080806.html

"In this context, the Israeli-Lebanese war was a confrontation looking for a pretext, not an ad hoc response to Hezbollah’s capture of two Israeli soldiers on July 12. That so-called “kidnapping” has been sold to the American people and many world leaders as the precipitating event for the conflict, but it now appears only to have been a trigger for a prearranged scheme.

Israeli sources indicate that Bush gave Olmert a green light for the conflict at the May 23 summit. The sources said Bush has even encouraged Israel to expand the war by attacking Syria, although Israeli leaders balked at that recommendation because they lacked an immediate justification."

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Re: What should be done about Iran?

Post by Coito ergo sum » Tue Apr 20, 2010 9:01 am

FBM wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:
FBM wrote:Step one: Stop being hypocritical. If you want a nuke-free world, give up your nukes.
I don't mind that. The trick is making sure that the other folks don't have them too.
Yeah, verifiability is the fly in the ointment. Big headache, what with national sovereignty and all.
FBM wrote:
Step two: Admit the obvious. The genie's out of the bottle. We let it out. If we had the right to develop nukes, so do other countries, however whacked-out they are.
Well, if Iran signs the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty as a non-nuclear country, which they did, I would think that a general respect for international law would allow one to suggest to Iran that they kindly abide by it.
I'd have to be more up-to-date with current developments to respond to that. It's not a big news item over here. :dono: I remember some country or other claiming that their nuclear program was only for energy, not weapons. Could have been Iran. Or maybe Maldives. :think:
Were you referring to nuclear power when you referred to Iran's "right to develop nukes," because we had already let the "genie out of the bottle?"

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Re: What should be done about Iran?

Post by Chinaski » Tue Apr 20, 2010 10:28 am

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Is there for honest poverty
That hangs his heid and a' that
The coward slave, we pass him by
We dare be puir for a' that.

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Re: What should be done about Iran?

Post by RuleBritannia » Sat Apr 24, 2010 4:04 am

RuleBritannia © MMXI

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Re: What should be done about Iran?

Post by Hermit » Sat Apr 24, 2010 12:05 pm

Ian wrote:We could sit back and let Israel take care of business. :coffee:
"We" just supply them with the wherewithal, just like "we" have always done. Proxy-warring much?
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Re: What should be done about Iran?

Post by JimC » Sat Apr 24, 2010 12:12 pm

Ignore them, and concentrate on the footy...

At least that won't actually kill people...
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Re: What should be done about Iran?

Post by Ian » Sat Apr 24, 2010 12:14 pm

Seraph wrote:
Ian wrote:We could sit back and let Israel take care of business. :coffee:
"We" just supply them with the wherewithal, just like "we" have always done. Proxy-warring much?
Yep. Kinda like Iran and Hezbollah/Syria.

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Re: What should be done about Iran?

Post by Hermit » Sat Apr 24, 2010 12:32 pm

That reminds me: Didn't "we" support Saddam Hussein with cash and weapons in the early eighties?

Which in turn reminds me of a joke making the rounds twenty years later: The US government can prove that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction. It has the signed delivery receipts.
I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops. - Stephen J. Gould

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Re: What should be done about Iran?

Post by Coito ergo sum » Sat Apr 24, 2010 1:46 pm

Seraph wrote:That reminds me: Didn't "we" support Saddam Hussein with cash and weapons in the early eighties?
Sure did. And, some even did so in the 1990s....
Seraph wrote:
Which in turn reminds me of a joke making the rounds twenty years later: The US government can prove that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction. It has the signed delivery receipts.
Which is it? Did they have them or not? "Bush lied, people died" because Iraq had no WMD - but, the US sold Iraq WMD. Ah, fuck it - doesn't matter - as long as it serves our political purpose, who gives a shit what the truth is.

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Re: What should be done about Iran?

Post by Chinaski » Sat Apr 24, 2010 1:54 pm

Machiavelli docet.
Is there for honest poverty
That hangs his heid and a' that
The coward slave, we pass him by
We dare be puir for a' that.

Imagehttp://imagegen.last.fm/iTunesFIXED/rec ... mphony.gif[/img2]

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Re: What should be done about Iran?

Post by Hermit » Sat Apr 24, 2010 2:12 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:
Seraph wrote:Which in turn reminds me of a joke making the rounds twenty years later: The US government can prove that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction. It has the signed delivery receipts.
Which is it? Did they have them or not? "Bush lied, people died" because Iraq had no WMD - but, the US sold Iraq WMD. Ah, fuck it - doesn't matter - as long as it serves our political purpose, who gives a shit what the truth is.
[Emphasis added to facilitate comprehension]

Read the bit you quoted again, CES. I am being kind and not make any further remarks regarding your question unless you wish to pursue your line of thinking.
I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops. - Stephen J. Gould

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Re: What should be done about Iran?

Post by Ameri Boi » Sat Apr 24, 2010 8:47 pm

Clinton Huxley wrote:I think Britain should meddle in the internal affairs of Iran, bring down it's government and impose quasi-colonial ostrich-plumed rule. It's worked before!
yup...

"Another aspect of the particulateness of the gene is that is does not grow senile; it is no more likely to die when it is a million years old than when it is only a hundred. It leaps from body to body in it's own way and for its own ends, abandoning a succession of mortal bodies before they sink in senility and death" -Richard Dawkins' The Selfish Gene p.34


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Re: What should be done about Iran?

Post by Coito ergo sum » Sun Apr 25, 2010 1:44 pm

Seraph wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:
Seraph wrote:Which in turn reminds me of a joke making the rounds twenty years later: The US government can prove that Iraq has weapons of mass destruction. It has the signed delivery receipts.
Which is it? Did they have them or not? "Bush lied, people died" because Iraq had no WMD - but, the US sold Iraq WMD. Ah, fuck it - doesn't matter - as long as it serves our political purpose, who gives a shit what the truth is.
[Emphasis added to facilitate comprehension]

Read the bit you quoted again, CES. I am being kind and not make any further remarks regarding your question unless you wish to pursue your line of thinking.
You see, though, the problem is that the little "joke" was bandied about as fact. I had arguments about that with folks at RDF, where they were quite serious.

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