Palestine v Israel.

[Strontium Dog]

So you're not going to engage on the very high level of civilian fatalities or the holy war rhetoric used to justify/excuse it. Remind me why you're posting here again?

Given that Hamas is outright saying it will keep making more attacks like the one of October 7th until Israel is destroyed, I think a little stirring rhetoric can be forgiven on the other side.

As I say, I await independent verification (ie not Hamas) of the number of civilian fatalities.

But it is a war, and that's what happens in wars, people die. I have no doubt Israel would prefer not to have to defend its existence against those who wish to wipe it off the map (again) but here we are.

[rainbow]

So you're not going to engage on the very high level of civilian fatalities or the holy war rhetoric used to justify/excuse it. Remind me why you're posting here again?

Given that Hamas is outright saying it will keep making more attacks like the one of October 7th until Israel is destroyed, I think a little stirring rhetoric can be forgiven on the other side.

As I say, I await independent verification (ie not Hamas) of the number of civilian fatalities.

But it is a war, and that's what happens in wars, people die. I have no doubt Israel would prefer not to have to defend its existence against those who wish to wipe it off the map (again) but here we are.

There is no justification for the killing of civilians.
Those that do so should be charged with murder, including those that order their combatants to do so.

[JimC]

There is a difference between the deliberate killing of civilians (which Hamas definitely did) and the death of civilians because they were in the proximity of legitimate military targets. Having said that, there needs to be a duty of care to avoid civilian deaths as much as possible, and Israel is clearly not doing enough in this regard.

[rainbow]

There is a difference between the deliberate killing of civilians (which Hamas definitely did) and the death of civilians because they were in the proximity of legitimate military targets. Having said that, there needs to be a duty of care to avoid civilian deaths as much as possible, and Israel is clearly not doing enough in this regard.

Are members of the IDF legitimate targets?

[JimC]

There is a difference between the deliberate killing of civilians (which Hamas definitely did) and the death of civilians because they were in the proximity of legitimate military targets. Having said that, there needs to be a duty of care to avoid civilian deaths as much as possible, and Israel is clearly not doing enough in this regard.

Are members of the IDF legitimate targets?

I guess so, but when Hamas made their original incursion, they clearly deliberately killed many Israeli civilians, which their indiscriminate rocket attacks also do. But the Israeli air strikes against Gaza are also far too indiscriminate.

[Strontium Dog]

There is a difference between the deliberate killing of civilians (which Hamas definitely did) and the death of civilians because they were in the proximity of legitimate military targets. Having said that, there needs to be a duty of care to avoid civilian deaths as much as possible, and Israel is clearly not doing enough in this regard.

This is basically the case, although the last portion is speculation. You have no idea how far Israel is going to avoid civilian casualties.

Are members of the IDF legitimate targets?

They would be for legitimate armed forces, but saince Hamas are illegal combatants...

[pErvinalia]

Illegal combatants? What's that? Who determines what a "legal" combatant is?

[Tero]

If you have a seat in the UN, like Russia, does that make you legal?

[JimC]

I think that international law recognises the armed forces of actual nations (e.g. the US, Australia and Israel) as legal combatants. In that regard, Hamas is not a recognised nation. However, the reality is that they have been in armed conflict with Israel for many years, and when they kill members of the IDF it should not, IMO, be considered criminal. However, over the years, they have almost certainly killed more Israeli non-combatants than members of the IDF - that as definitely the case in their recent incursion. I regard Hamas as a perfectly legitimate target for the IDF, but it is abundantly clear that their air strikes have killed large numbers of Palestinian non-combatants. SD's protestations none the less, the IDF is failing in the recognised duty of armed forces to minimise civilian casualties. They will argue that Hamas is deliberately sticking close to the civilian population as they launch rockets etc., so the civilian deaths are their fault. This, IMO, is casuistry worthy of the Jesuits...

The fact is that there is no easy solution, and most likely, no end to the bloody cycle of hatred and revenge from both sides...

[Tero]

My prediction: 2 more months. About 15000 Palestinians/gazans killed.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Israel–Hamas_war
So about 10/1 non-jews to jews dead.

[Strontium Dog]

I think that international law recognises the armed forces of actual nations (e.g. the US, Australia and Israel) as legal combatants. In that regard, Hamas is not a recognised nation. However, the reality is that they have been in armed conflict with Israel for many years, and when they kill members of the IDF it should not, IMO, be considered criminal. However, over the years, they have almost certainly killed more Israeli non-combatants than members of the IDF - that as definitely the case in their recent incursion. I regard Hamas as a perfectly legitimate target for the IDF, but it is abundantly clear that their air strikes have killed large numbers of Palestinian non-combatants. SD's protestations none the less, the IDF is failing in the recognised duty of armed forces to minimise civilian casualties. They will argue that Hamas is deliberately sticking close to the civilian population as they launch rockets etc., so the civilian deaths are their fault. This, IMO, is casuistry worthy of the Jesuits...

Well, that's international law. You're not allowed to use civilians as human shields, it's a war crime. As is firing indiscriminately at civilians (Hamas, Islamic Jihad).

The fact is that there is no easy solution, and most likely, no end to the bloody cycle of hatred and revenge from both sides...

Actually there's an easy solution, the Palestinians just need to stop killing Jews and accept Israel's right to exist.

[Brian Peacock]

They did that when the PLO signed the Oslo agreement.

[pErvinalia]

Isn't that what the Palestinian Authority have done? Hasn't stopped Israel settling on their land.

[rainbow]

Are members of the IDF legitimate targets?

They would be for legitimate armed forces, but saince Hamas are illegal combatants...

Hamas are the elected representatives of the people of Gaza. Do they not have the right to have an army to defend themselves?

...just to clarify your answer. Are IDF members legitimate targets?

[rainbow]

There is a difference between the deliberate killing of civilians (which Hamas definitely did) and the death of civilians because they were in the proximity of legitimate military targets. Having said that, there needs to be a duty of care to avoid civilian deaths as much as possible, and Israel is clearly not doing enough in this regard.

Are members of the IDF legitimate targets?

I guess so, but when Hamas made their original incursion, they clearly deliberately killed many Israeli civilians, which their indiscriminate rocket attacks also do. But the Israeli air strikes against Gaza are also far too indiscriminate.

The rocket attacks from Gaza have killed a handful of people. The Israeli airstrikes have killed thousands.