Toward a New Foundation

[lordpasternack]

Dan, even though Sam Harris is the founder, he doesn't spend much time stressing it, and states that anything you choose to do for the Project should be considered your own work.

As for 'a new foundation' - what exactly do you mean? A charity? A general strong front in promoting critical thinking and science? Some sorts of specific community projects?

I've actually considered myself that there is quite a bit of untapped talent here (and not in THAT way), which could be put to some nobler purpose if we found some impetus to do so. Even just producing entertaining and educative ezines, which we did do at least once.

The other side of the coin, though, is that most people are here just to relax and discuss some various issues. There are also some present who couldn't organise a piss-up in a brewery, anyway.

So yes, there's latent talent, but also some reasons why it isn't all shining as it arguably could.

But of course you and the other new guys are part of here now too and are more than entitled to discuss any noble plots and schemes you may have, with every other person here.

[Horwood Beer-Master]

a new Global Foundation of Reason and Science

To what end?

World domination of course!!...

Somebody mention world domination?

[Spearthrower]

Nah, I never donated funds for that. The aims of the foundation where to promote science and reason world wide.

That sounds quite nebulous.

Nebulous, but commendable with a dose of optimism!

I assume Dan means something along the lines of Sagan's promotion of science.

[Pensioner]

My loyalty is 100% given to this site now, end of story for me.

[DanDare]

Well, its been a day now. I've slept and had a chance to take stock.

Here are some thoughts. The RDF was set up with a number of serious goals in mind: http://richarddawkinsfoundation.org/fou ... ourMission
They didn't realise it but I believe that the forum community was the beating heart of that foundation and an important driver of its mission. I could be wrong but the near future will probably tell.

I'm glad to have discovered rationalia, and will stay on here, but I for one would like to take up the mission of the RDF with the talent of as many of those who made it work as possible. Without a single figurehead like Richard that will be difficult. As well as arranging grants for RDF he supported the site with his own funds, using the site to help promote book sales and dvd sales. These sales may take a bit of a dive without the forum members, not because we are churlish, I for one still like his books, but because we were a cheap advertising conduit.

Anyway, if we can form a new organisation, with an "association" as the owner (thanks for the idea) we can start over. Instead of a figurehead owning us perhaps we can enlist figureheads (or grow our own, images of 2 headed mutants spring to mind). Running a phpbb forum is not hugely expensive for a group. We would also build an articles area but each such article should link to a forum thread for discussion (sorry, Josh, you had it the wrong way around mate).

The forum should also be the clearing house for organising action. Rather than a "centrally planned" structure we should consider something like The Brights are trying to do.

The old RDF forum rules were pretty good so lets re-use those. So, any of the old RDF mods and members even a bit interested? Have some ideas to chuck in?

[lordpasternack]

I'm sceptical but curious to find out how serious any dive in traffic at RD.net as a result of this change will be. Even there, Richard himself has quite enough money to keep it all, including the Foundation, trundling along on his own steam. Also, even if we were to raise money - what would you suggest we do with it? The community is still fairly small - we might make a few thousand quid or so over some sort of time period or other. But then what would you intend to actually do with the money?

We already do have a non-profit bank account under the title The Rationalia Association, which our main admin (Pappa) manages, and currently uses solely for paying for the forum - so the idea of setting up an association is not that far from the current situation - and we could potentially do something there. I still think we'd remain small fry for quite some time though. It's nice to hold some nebulous pie-in-the-sky ambition at the outset - but when it gets down to fleshing an actual plan out, you have to be more realistic and pragmatic.

We could possibly start a small association to serve this community, like a local charity club or something. It could work, and we could band together to help it be as successful as possible - but there will be a limit to that somewhere, when we lack rich benefactors (to my knowledge), and a certain amount of fame and public presence (as an entity, or due to any individual here).

Beyond that, I'd be more for affiliating with The Reason Project. Even while it has one distinct manager, Harris has gone to lengths to hold it at arms length and make it a community sort of thing.

Just sharing my opinion...

[ED209]

My loyalty is 100% given to this site now, end of story for me.

Hey Pensioner, nice one

[Shaker]

My loyalty is 100% given to this site now, end of story for me.

This just happens to be exactly what I think too.

[DanDare]

I don't think we can just make a new forum somewhere and see what comes next. We need a goal in mind that will enthuse the refugees and guide our development. Funds we raise need to first pay for the hosting, secondly pay for marketing to bring new people and build the new community. With that we also start finding out who can help build the larger fund base for doing the work of legal defence of secularism, promoting better science education, helping to develop the skills of reason etc etc.

[lordpasternack]

I don't think we can just make a new forum somewhere and see what comes next.

This forum is a year old, and is actually a grandchild of RD.net - having been the product of a mass exodus from RD.net back in October 2008, and then another subsequent exodus from that first breakaway forum. The veterans here are actually rather war-weary, and are generally equanimous about the idea of having the forum for the forum's sake. It serves the ongoing community and will continue to do so, so long as that community continues to exist and continues to support the forum's ongoing existence. There is a lovely, palpable feeling of intimacy around these parts (with some couples who came together via our various forum homes, and some spates of casual flings amongst some other members ) - and many of us value that.

We need a goal in mind that will enthuse the refugees and guide our development.

Who is 'we', and why do we necessarily need that?

We have had this discussion before, quite a few times. It'd be nice to get more of your perspective on it.

Funds we raise need to first pay for the hosting, secondly pay for marketing to bring new people and build the new community. With that we also start finding out who can help build the larger fund base for doing the work of legal defence of secularism, promoting better science education, helping to develop the skills of reason etc etc.

Nice ambition - but it still depends entirely what the majority of the community want. This site functions first and foremost as a community. That is its main agenda and priority.

[Precambrian Rabbi]

Apologies if I misunderstood but it certainly came across that way - as much from others responses than from your own posts, I will concede.

By all means start your own site. I wish you luck and, if it's any good, I will support it. However, I get the distinct impression that the understanding of most in the thread was that Rationalia was to be the basis for this vision - there have been comments in the thread to that end.

I'm afraid I was guilty of misunderstanding and thoughtlessly reinforcing that idea. Stupid and presumptuous of me. Apologies.

It's been a long 48 hours.

As to what the OP was really suggesting, an entirely new foundation, it would be interesting to hear more but I'm not sure how much long term scope there would be for an "RDF for people pissed off with RDF". Apart from hosting a community forum, how would it differ from what they will now be offering? Could it compete with the existing RDF brand to promote science and reason in terms of quality of content, fund raising ability, political clout etc.? In the bigger picture, grievances aside, would we want it to?

[Pensioner]

I don't think we can just make a new forum somewhere and see what comes next.

This forum is a year old, and is actually a grandchild of RD.net - having been the product of a mass exodus from RD.net back in October 2008, and then another subsequent exodus from that first breakaway forum. The veterans here are actually rather war-weary, and are generally equanimous about the idea of having the forum for the forum's sake. It serves the ongoing community and will continue to do so, so long as that community continues to exist and continues to support the forum's ongoing existence. There is a lovely, palpable feeling of intimacy around these parts (with some couples who came together via our various forum homes, and some spates of casual flings amongst some other members ) - and many of us value that.

We need a goal in mind that will enthuse the refugees and guide our development.

Who is 'we', and why do we necessarily need that?

We have had this discussion before, quite a few times. It'd be nice to get more of your perspective on it.

Funds we raise need to first pay for the hosting, secondly pay for marketing to bring new people and build the new community. With that we also start finding out who can help build the larger fund base for doing the work of legal defence of secularism, promoting better science education, helping to develop the skills of reason etc etc.

Nice ambition - but it still depends entirely what the majority of the community want. This site functions first and foremost as a community. That is its main agenda and priority.

Well said LP I agree with you 100%. I feel like a guest in a mate’s house in this forum and it would be ill mannered of me to try and rearrange the furniture.

[lordpasternack]

Apart from hosting a community forum, how would it differ from what they will now be offering?

It wouldn't come wrapped in the PR of a single individual, and as such changes wouldn't necessarily be made to any other aspect of the site in order to protect that individual's PR - as did happen on RD.net, whether you were aware of it or not. Nor would it be tied particularly to the perceived agenda of that particular person, nor come across to some as a self-ingratiating exercise of a self-involved individual. Nor make appeals to fame and authority with a foundation whose aim in a small part would presumably be to discourage such. I genuinely think that The Reason Project satisfactorily fulfills that role, but there can be no satisfying everyone.

I personally came to the conclusion of withholding support from RDFRS before any of the recent events for some of the above reasons (and probably more that I stated at the time), and chose The Reason Project as an alternative.

Could it compete with the existing RDF brand to promote science and reason in terms of quality of content, fund raising ability, political clout etc.? In the bigger picture, grievances aside, would we want it to?

It would theoretically convolve with RDFRS in many endeavours, and would at least serve the purpose of providing a channel for those who would rather give to a charity that more wholly does things 'their' way. In much the same way as there are a number of different homeless charities, or anti-poverty charities. And for some, yes, it would be taken as a way of continuing to support the furthering of reason and science in a way that doesn't continue to give money to support the careers of individuals they don't wish to support. It's a bit of a dilemma if you are into wanting a general goal to be pushing a social movement. There is strength in numbers - but the bigger the organisation, the more likely there are to be conflicts of conscience, bickering and disagreements as to how things should be done.

[lordpasternack]

Well said LP I agree with you 100%. I feel like a guest in a mate’s house in this forum and it would be ill mannered of me to try and rearrange the furniture.

Well, they can by all means suggest rearranging the furniture, or become enterprising and move on again to another forum (perhaps one of their own), where things more wholly suit their tastes. Just as most of us here have done in the past.

[Cunt]

DanDare, what can you and I agree on?

If you want to start a group of some kind to promote reason and science, I am interested. Me and my hundred bucks need more information, though. What would our association (you and I, at the moment) be aiming for? How would the money be used to further our goals?

How do we convince Precambrian Rabbi (and the others who should follow) to join our cause?

I have a hundred bucks here...how do you and I turn that into an association? (or whatever you have in mind)

Please remember that once you and I agree, we have to find a way to get others to agree, so try to keep it as simple as possible.

I am able to get a forum up and running. I would even venture to say that we could advertise it here (would have to check the rules, of course). I need to know a lot more though...