America must be removed from the "Islamic World."

[Gawd]

It's not "settlement by stealth," it's quite open and notorious. Israel won the West Bank and Gaza, and the Sinai in the 1967 war. It's theirs, they can settle it if they so desire. That's how the right of conquest works, even in the Middle East, and has been working for some thousands of years.

Excuse me while I go shot up some Jews and shove the rest into the sea to exercise my right of conquest.

[Coito ergo sum]

It's not "settlement by stealth," it's quite open and notorious. Israel won the West Bank and Gaza, and the Sinai in the 1967 war. It's theirs, they can settle it if they so desire. That's how the right of conquest works, even in the Middle East, and has been working for some thousands of years.

Excuse me while I go shot up some Jews and shove the rest into the sea to exercise my right of conquest.

Haven't Muslims been doing that for the last 64 years anyway?

Or, were the Arabs engaged in illegal warfare during the following?

The 1948–49 War
The 1956 War
The 1967 War (The Six-Day War)
The 1973–74 War (The Yom Kippur War)
The 1978/1982 War

[Feck]

"The problem with Gaza and the Palestinians is that they insist on having Jerusalem too. Israel is NEVER going to allow Arabs to control Jerusalem. Ever. Therefore, Gaza will remain in limbo, and a Palestinian state will never exist until they give up their demand for partition of Jerusalem."

The Palestinians are not demanding control of Jerusalem . They want the right to an Arab quarter and free access to the dome of the rock . It's not the Muslims that have lived for centuries in Jerusalem that are causing Israel a problem most of the time it's those damned fuckers living in the way of Israel's newest scheme to house aggressive Zionists on Palestinian land . Maybe if The West bank and Gaza where renamed Warsaw they might see the irony of their great plan for a wall .

Seth? So by that token Kuwait is IraQ then ?

[Gawd]

It's not "settlement by stealth," it's quite open and notorious. Israel won the West Bank and Gaza, and the Sinai in the 1967 war. It's theirs, they can settle it if they so desire. That's how the right of conquest works, even in the Middle East, and has been working for some thousands of years.

Excuse me while I go shot up some Jews and shove the rest into the sea to exercise my right of conquest.

Haven't Muslims been doing that for the last 64 years anyway?

Or, were the Arabs engaged in illegal warfare during the following?

The 1948–49 War
The 1956 War
The 1967 War (The Six-Day War)
The 1973–74 War (The Yom Kippur War)
The 1978/1982 War

The Arabs were fighting for the Palestinians whose land were stolen through violent means by Jews. They were not trying to conquest anything, unlike what Seth says I can do.

[Seth]

It's not "settlement by stealth," it's quite open and notorious. Israel won the West Bank and Gaza, and the Sinai in the 1967 war. It's theirs, they can settle it if they so desire. That's how the right of conquest works, even in the Middle East, and has been working for some thousands of years.

Excuse me while I go shot up some Jews and shove the rest into the sea to exercise my right of conquest.

Well, the point is that you can try. Many have tried in the past. All have failed. Most have died in the attempt. More will die in the attempt. And if they pose too much of a threat, Israel will make sure that they die by the millions.

Israel recognizes the process of conquest, and has resolved to remain militarily superior to its enemies to forestall just such an attempt, and they are very, very good at it.

So, by all means, head on over and give it a bash. Fit yourself for an explosives vest and go kill some Israelis. At least that way we'll not have to listen to your bollocks anymore, because you'll be dead.

[Warren Dew]

Thing is, if Iran uses nukes on Israel, they are destroying an Arab holy site: Jerusalem. And Israel will not hesitate to turn Tehran into a radioactive pool of glass on the launch of an Israel-capable nuclear missile. Not for one instant will they hesitate.

They could destroy Tel Aviv without touching Jerusalem. I agree things would be messy. Still, from the palestinian point of view, it's a stronger thread than this:

And, I think if the UN recognized the borders between the two STATES, the US would lend its weight to enforcing those borders.

Coito, sometimes your naivete is so extreme that it's cute. No, I don't think the U.S. will be enforcing any borders that involve Israel giving up East Jerusalem, as the (pre) 1967 borders would. Alliances are thicker than borders.

I have my doubts, but I hope your correct. And, this article supports your position: http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/babylon ... nship.html

Having a separate country consisting of the West Bank and Gaza is stupid.

The problem for Israel in annexing it would be to squelch the mad ravings of Hamas and Fateh. Those groups would start ululating about what a tragedy it is for Israel to be around, etc.....

Thanks for finding that link. 56% palestinian support for the west bank being annexed by Israel isn't bad. My search only found stuff about Fatahgate, where Fatah apparently made a secret deal to accede to certain Israeli land grabs - which incidentally suggests that Fatah would not be as big a barrier as you suggest, and also illustrates why many palestinians view Fatah as selling out.

The biggest problem with that solution is that many Israelis object to it. They want to be part of a state that's 99% or 100% Jewish, not a state that's only 65% Jewish, as annexation of the west bank would result in. They're also worried that if current demographic trends continue, Jews would become a minority in a few decades, which would kind of make it difficult for Israel to continue to be a de facto Jewish religious state. Personally I think the palestinian fertility rate would fall rather promptly once they became Israeli citizens, with all the added economic security that would bring, but the Israeli objectors aren't looking at that.

Incidentally, that's why only annexation of the west bank is on the table, and not of Gaza, with its additional palestinian population. Not annexing Gaza would also prevent Hamas from destabilizing the combined Israel internally. Under this plan, Gaza would need eventually to be recognized as an independent state or merged back into Egypt.

Fewer and fewer states all the time. I think the count is something like 41 for the states having a "castle doctrine" law that allows the use of deadly physical force against an intruder into one's home. Hopefully it will be universal soon.

I'd be interested in a list. No doubt Massachusetts will be one of the last holdouts.

[Seth]

"The problem with Gaza and the Palestinians is that they insist on having Jerusalem too. Israel is NEVER going to allow Arabs to control Jerusalem. Ever. Therefore, Gaza will remain in limbo, and a Palestinian state will never exist until they give up their demand for partition of Jerusalem."

The Palestinians are not demanding control of Jerusalem . They want the right to an Arab quarter and free access to the dome of the rock.

Which happens to be an Islamic holy site deliberately built on a Jewish and Christian holy site as a part of the Muslim practice of building mosques on the religious sites of those they conquer. Sucks to the the Palestinians, because Israel has every right to demolish the Muslim structures of occupation and replace them with a Jewish temple if it pleases them to do so.

It's not the Muslims that have lived for centuries in Jerusalem that are causing Israel a problem most of the time it's those damned fuckers living in the way of Israel's newest scheme to house aggressive Zionists on Palestinian land . Maybe if The West bank and Gaza where renamed Warsaw they might see the irony of their great plan for a wall .

The difference is, as it was with the Soviet Union, that Israel is building a wall to keep its enemies out, while the Soviets and the Nazis built walls to keep their enemies in.

Seth? So by that token Kuwait is IraQ then ?

Only if Iraq can manage to take it and hold it. Last time it tried to do so, it lost, rather decisively.

[Warren Dew]

The 1967 War (The Six-Day War)

The Israelis were the aggressors in this war.

[Gawd]

It's not "settlement by stealth," it's quite open and notorious. Israel won the West Bank and Gaza, and the Sinai in the 1967 war. It's theirs, they can settle it if they so desire. That's how the right of conquest works, even in the Middle East, and has been working for somCe thousands of years.

Excuse me while I go shot up some Jews and shove the rest into the sea to exercise my right of conquest.

Well, the point is that you can try. Many have tried in the past. All have failed. Most have died in the attempt. More will die in the attempt. And if they pose too much of a threat, Israel will make sure that they die by the millions.

Israel recognizes the process of conquest, and has resolved to remain militarily superior to its enemies to forestall just such an attempt, and they are very, very good at it.

So, by all means, head on over and give it a bash. Fit yourself for an explosives vest and go kill some Israelis. At least that way we'll not have to listen to your bollocks anymore, because you'll be dead.

Who says I'm going to do it in Israel? Why not start with American Jews? I will avenge Hitler who was entirely justified in his actions because he was simply exercising his right of conquest. Heil Hitler!!!

[Seth]

It's not "settlement by stealth," it's quite open and notorious. Israel won the West Bank and Gaza, and the Sinai in the 1967 war. It's theirs, they can settle it if they so desire. That's how the right of conquest works, even in the Middle East, and has been working for some thousands of years.

Excuse me while I go shot up some Jews and shove the rest into the sea to exercise my right of conquest.

Haven't Muslims been doing that for the last 64 years anyway?

Or, were the Arabs engaged in illegal warfare during the following?

The 1948–49 War
The 1956 War
The 1967 War (The Six-Day War)
The 1973–74 War (The Yom Kippur War)
The 1978/1982 War

The Arabs were fighting for the Palestinians whose land were stolen through violent means by Jews. They were not trying to conquest anything, unlike what Seth says I can do.

I doubt you can "do" anything, but please give it a go if you like. I'm confident Israel will survive your attempts at conquest.

[Seth]

It's not "settlement by stealth," it's quite open and notorious. Israel won the West Bank and Gaza, and the Sinai in the 1967 war. It's theirs, they can settle it if they so desire. That's how the right of conquest works, even in the Middle East, and has been working for somCe thousands of years.

Excuse me while I go shot up some Jews and shove the rest into the sea to exercise my right of conquest.

Well, the point is that you can try. Many have tried in the past. All have failed. Most have died in the attempt. More will die in the attempt. And if they pose too much of a threat, Israel will make sure that they die by the millions.

Israel recognizes the process of conquest, and has resolved to remain militarily superior to its enemies to forestall just such an attempt, and they are very, very good at it.

So, by all means, head on over and give it a bash. Fit yourself for an explosives vest and go kill some Israelis. At least that way we'll not have to listen to your bollocks anymore, because you'll be dead.

Who says I'm going to do it in Israel? Why not start with American Jews? I will avenge Hitler who was entirely justified in his actions because he was simply exercising his right of conquest. Heil Hitler!!!

Fine by me. You end up dead in either case. Thing about conquest is that you have to win. If you don't, you're just dead.

[Feck]

Yes Seth you are always right . Next time some one builds a wall all around my house I will remember they aren't enclosing Me they they are enclosing themselves.

[Seth]

The 1967 War (The Six-Day War)

The Israelis were the aggressors in this war.

Even if true, which it's not, it doesn't matter. They won. That's all that matters to the right of conquest.

[Seth]

Yes Seth you are always right . Next time some one builds a wall all around my house I will remember they aren't enclosing Me they they are enclosing themselves.

Well, if you lob rockets and bombs and shoot at people outside your house, then society is justified in putting a wall up to protect itself.

That's what should have been done at Waco. The FBI should have used the Combat Engineers to build a wall around the compound and declared it to be a federal prison and then let Koresh and his supporters to stew in their own juices till they got tired of being locked up.

[Coito ergo sum]

The 1967 War (The Six-Day War)

The Israelis were the aggressors in this war.

That's one. But, Israel's case for preemptive strike in self-defense looks pretty good when you look at the forces aligned against it. Egypt massed like 1,000 tanks and 100,000 men in Sinai - Jordan massed like 50,000 men and a few hundred tanks on their border and Syria massed about 75,000 troops and load of tanks on their border....100s of Iraqi tanks were massed on the Jordanian border, ready to be reserve forces in the fight, along with MiG21s and other fighter aircraft. They were up against a three front war, like NJ being attacked by New York, Pennsylvania and Delaware all at ounce.

And, I'm sure you're aware of the host of Muslim countries that were lending additional forces - Pakistan, Morocco, Saudi Arabia, Libya, Algeria, Kuwait....

Had Israel waited for the attack to come, there would have been about 1,000 aircraft kicking in the door, with Egypt alone having about 1/2 that total. Followed by about 250,000 ground troops, and 500 tanks.... it was not looking good for Israel. Bold move.