New NASA Data Blow Gaping Hole In Global Warming Alarmism

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Re: New NASA Data Blow Gaping Hole In Global Warming Alarmis

Post by mistermack » Tue Sep 06, 2011 12:10 am

Seraph wrote:Like I said: you're pretty adept at suddenly turning deaf. I have read your links as well as some of of the others. It helps to check both sides if you are aiming at making an informed decision. Also, I am at this stage somewhat sceptical about the anthropocentric part of the climate change issue.
Only out of necessity. I do have other things to do. I turn deaf if someone posts a deluge of linked stuff, and expects me to reply to it all.
If they kept it short, I'd reply.

And Scheibster, your answer to Seraph was complete bollocks.
All that establishes is how much CO2 is man-made. That's not under dispute by anyone.
What's being argued about is whether it is affecting the climate.
I don't think you've grasped the point at all !!
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Re: New NASA Data Blow Gaping Hole In Global Warming Alarmis

Post by mistermack » Tue Sep 06, 2011 1:29 am

What's crystal clear from the ice core data from the last 400,000 years is
1) We are due an ice age
2) Warming Feeback mechanisms have ALWAYS stopped at the current levels ( if they existed )
3) The 800 year lag is consistent over the whole period
4) Most of the current warm temps are due to warming that happened 10 to 15,000 years ago.
Todays warming is small in comparison.

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Re: New NASA Data Blow Gaping Hole In Global Warming Alarmis

Post by Schneibster » Tue Sep 06, 2011 2:26 am

mistermack wrote:What's crystal clear from the ice core data from the last 400,000 years is
1) We are due an ice age
In about 30,000 years, is the current mainstream view. And in fact, that's not clear from ice core data at all; it's clear from the exact nature and timing of the Milankovitch cycles.
mistermack wrote:2) Warming Feeback mechanisms have ALWAYS stopped at the current levels ( if they existed )
No. The Paleocene-Eocene Thermal Maximum peaked at about 12°C above where it is today.

But even that's nowhere near as hot as it's ever been on Earth. At the end of the Cambrian Explosion, when millions of species suddenly appear in the geological record, the CO2 content of the atmosphere was well above 4000 PPM, about ten times what it is today; some estimates put it as high as 7000 PPM. This implies a climate about 20°C warmer than today, with almost no polar caps. It took through the Ordovician, Silurian, and Devonian for the plants with stems to evolve in the oceans, colonize the land, evolve into enormous forests, and capture all that CO2, bringing the CO2 down nearly to 200 PPM. This, combined with the Milankovitch cycles, caused the second longest ice age in the history of the planet, the Karoo Ice Age, which lasted nearly a hundred million years, until the beginning of the Permian. (The longest is called the Cryogenian, and featured the Earth being frozen into a climate "strange attractor" state called "Snowball Earth," which is just what it sounds like: the Earth is covered with ice, reflecting most of the heat back to space, and the Milankovitch cycles are not strong enough except at their highest insolation state to break the hold of the attractor. That took a long, long time to come around.)
mistermack wrote:3) The 800 year lag is consistent over the whole period
What "whole period?" 400,000 years? That's jack-shit. I just talked about the PETM which happened sixty million years ago, a period over a hundred times longer. The Vostok ice core goes back 11 or 12 million, twenty-five times longer. And those are in the recent past; the beginning of the Cambrian is five hundred million years ago. Stop cherry-picking.

As far as the 800-year lag, it is irrelevant whether it was consistent or not; you'd know that if you'd read the Real Climate article I linked. Nobody's denying the lag; what you don't get is that not all the warming's due to CO2, the CO2 amplifies the Milankovitch cycle-caused warming.
mistermack wrote:4) Most of the current warm temps are due to warming that happened 10 to 15,000 years ago.
Todays warming is small in comparison.
This is word salad.

11,000 years ago, the Milankovitch cycles caused the Earth to start getting warmer. About 800 years after that, enough heat had accumulated to allow animals to start growing in the sea enough to raise the CO2 level from around 220 to around 290 PPM. At that point, global warming took over and warmed us the rest of the way to where we were up until the eighteenth century, more or less. At that point, we started burning coal and oil enough to raise the CO2 levels gradually to where they are today, approaching 400 PPM.

As far as today's warming being "small in comparison," I don't even know what that means. Let's stick with quantifications that include numbers, OK?
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Re: New NASA Data Blow Gaping Hole In Global Warming Alarmis

Post by Schneibster » Tue Sep 06, 2011 2:59 am

Meanwhile, you're changing the subject again:

Feedback?
Spencer lied?
Mann was cleared?
The hockey stick is "fundamentally sound?"
You guys lied about Mann to try to get him in trouble?
You didn't know we're in an ice age (and your graph even shows it)?
You keep bringing up "CO2 lags" even though it's already been debunked?

Or are we just supposed to ignore your subject-changing?

Right now you're down nine to one.
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Re: New NASA Data Blow Gaping Hole In Global Warming Alarmis

Post by mistermack » Tue Sep 06, 2011 2:40 pm

You rabbiting on about the climate from millions of years ago is ridiculous and irrelevant.
We have cycles that have repeated almost identically four times over about the last four hundred thousand years. So what the fuck are you on about? There were fucking great graphs, next to my text. Did you think they were decoration?

And if you look at the ice core graphs, the regular plunge into an ice age is OVERDUE, not due in 30,000 years. Are you blind?
And when I said "always", it was bleedin obvious that I was referring to the period covered by graphs that were there for all to see. Can't you read? Or comprehend text? If you need such simple things explaining to you, you're not really worth debating.

Michael Mann I know nothing about, except that he managed to select evidence regarding the medieval warm period, to produce a straighter hockey stick. There is still huge uncertainty, his study just chose the data they wanted. And that he's rabidly political about AGW. If he was accused of something, well of course he would be cleared. He's establishment.

You rubbish the 800 year lag, even though it was deliberately hidden for the "inconvenient truth" film.
How Ironic, a film with that title hiding an inconvenient truth.
The lag is HIGHLY relevant. It DISPROVES the claim that feedback related to rising CO2 is necessary for warming. Because you have 800 years with falling CO2, no warming feedback mechanism, when the climate changes fundamentally. This proves that no positive feedback mechanism is needed for a drastic warming climate change.

And I have no idea why you wrote that I didn't know we are in an ice age. Are you making things up? We have a huge ice cap on Greenland, and Antarctica, and sea ice at the north pole. What the fuck are you talking about? We are in a warm interglacial, at the top of the temperature cycle, and minimum ice. That should be obvious to any fool that looks at the temperature graph that I posted.
We are overdue to dive back into a period of severe cold, with gigantic ice sheets over much of the earth.


I'm finding this tiresome, replying to totally irrelveant stuff and things I didn't say. I'm not a fuckin remedial teacher. If you don't understand my posts there's not much point, so I'm going to take a holiday unless you add something worthwhile.
Bye.
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Re: New NASA Data Blow Gaping Hole In Global Warming Alarmis

Post by Schneibster » Tue Sep 06, 2011 9:00 pm

mistermack wrote:You rabbiting on about the climate from millions of years ago is ridiculous and irrelevant.
You are now on the "first lie" program; in this program, I only read your post until I find the first lie, then I expose it and move on.

1. The previous climate of Earth is not irrelevant to the current climate of Earth.
2. You brought it up with your cherry-picking 400,000 years.

Next?
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Latest On Spencer

Post by Schneibster » Thu Sep 08, 2011 6:40 am

Looks like Spencer got some more bad news. A study by an atmospheric scientist at Texas A&M has found that Spencer's analysis claiming clouds are a strong driver of global climate change are wrong. They also show that Spencer cherry-picked the five model results that supported his hypothesis but ignored seven more that did not. The atmospheric scientist says that Spencer made incorrect assumptions at the beginning and that's why his results were wrong by an order of magnitude. (That's ten times or more. A LOT.)

In addition, evidence of more cherry-picking has emerged from a study done by a researcher at Lawrence Livermore of Spencer's earlier claims that climate models overstate the effects of increased CO2. Spencer cherry-picked in this case by choosing very short frames in his study. The researcher describes it as being like analyzing the Dow at one hour intervals. It's not going to tell you about yearly behavior.

Spencer's looking more and more like he's lost his integrity. These are fairly serious cases of wrongdoing; first, he's gotten something published that someone had to resign over the inaccuracies of, and second, two other researchers are finding significant data errors that show conscious manipulation of data with apparent intent to deceive. This is worth watching. I think this guy's going down in flames.

Read all about it.
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Re: New NASA Data Blow Gaping Hole In Global Warming Alarmis

Post by nellikin » Thu Sep 08, 2011 7:00 am

Hey Mistermack, are you aware that the CO2 spike only follows temp in the Antartic? It precedes it by about a few thousand years in the Greenland ice-cores? http://icebubbles.ucsd.edu/Publications ... ermIII.pdf.

The initial warming in Antarctica may have been triggered by something else, but CO2 could easily feedback into the warming cycle and contribute to a distribution of heat throughout the globe, even inducing a warming in the tropics and northern hemisphere...
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Re: New NASA Data Blow Gaping Hole In Global Warming Alarmis

Post by Schneibster » Thu Sep 08, 2011 7:28 am

Are you sure, nellikin? I couldn't find a reference in that paper to Greenland ice cores showing the CO2 spike leading deglaciation; no reference to CO2 leading any deglaciation (called a "termination" in the paper). And my understanding of the reason for the lag is different from what you're describing, too.

Further confusing matters is an additional point that although it was implicit in this understanding, had never struck me: deglaciation takes about 5000 years; if the CO2 lags the start of deglaciation by 800 years, then there is an additional 4200 years after the CO2 starts to spike during which CO2 can have an effect on temperatures. So in other words, it's wrong to say that the CO2 has nothing to do with it; actually it has nothing to do with 800/5000, or 4/25 of it, but is present for the remaining 21/25, the overwhelming majority of it.

In addition to that, the CO2 comes from animal activity; everyone knows you breathe in oxygen and breathe out CO2, and so do all animals. When the temperatures start to warm up, animals (plankton) in the sea bloom. When they do, being animals, they make CO2. This takes 800 years or so to start to build up; after that, it starts affecting the climate, causing global warming that warms things up far more than the Milankovitch cycle state change could, even though the state change started it by warming things just enough for the plankton to bloom.

Combine these two effects, both perfectly obvious, and it's clear where the 800 year lag comes from and why it cannot prove that CO2 changes cannot cause global climate change.
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Re: New NASA Data Blow Gaping Hole In Global Warming Alarmis

Post by mistermack » Thu Sep 08, 2011 12:24 pm

The Daily Climate wrote: The Daily Climate works to increase public understanding of climate disruption, including its scope and scale, potential solutions and the political processes that impede or advance them.

The Daily Climate does not espouse a political point of view
:funny: :funny: :funny: :funny: :funny: :funny: :funny: :funny:

Congratulations. You've managed to find a site as rabid as RealClimate.
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Re: New NASA Data Blow Gaping Hole In Global Warming Alarmis

Post by mistermack » Thu Sep 08, 2011 12:35 pm

nellikin wrote:Hey Mistermack, are you aware that the CO2 spike only follows temp in the Antartic? It precedes it by about a few thousand years in the Greenland ice-cores? http://icebubbles.ucsd.edu/Publications ... ermIII.pdf.

The initial warming in Antarctica may have been triggered by something else, but CO2 could easily feedback into the warming cycle and contribute to a distribution of heat throughout the globe, even inducing a warming in the tropics and northern hemisphere...
I can't find that. Your link is about Vostok, as far as I can see.
By the way, I wouldn't pay much attention to Schneibster re: Vostok.
He thinks their cores go back 11 to 12 million years !!
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Re: New NASA Data Blow Gaping Hole In Global Warming Alarmis

Post by Schneibster » Thu Sep 08, 2011 4:50 pm

Oops, my bad- I misinterpreted this graph: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:65_My ... Change.png, look in the lower right-hand corner. Apparently eleven million years of data have been normalized to the Vostok core ΔT.

Maybe if you were to bring these things up a) in a bit more timely fashion, and b) without embedding it in a bunch of lies and attempts to work the system?

Just sayin'.
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Re: New NASA Data Blow Gaping Hole In Global Warming Alarmis

Post by mistermack » Thu Sep 08, 2011 5:58 pm

Schneibster wrote:Oops, my bad- I misinterpreted this graph: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:65_My ... Change.png, look in the lower right-hand corner. Apparently eleven million years of data have been normalized to the Vostok core ΔT.

Maybe if you were to bring these things up a) in a bit more timely fashion, and b) without embedding it in a bunch of lies and attempts to work the system?

Just sayin'.
I let it go the first time, but you were on about the vostok cores again.

Re your theory about a bloom of animals, has it not occurred to you that such a bloom would require an even bigger bloom of green life first? Animals eating other animals actually reduces the overall animal biomass.
So the required bloom of green matter would be bound to use up more CO2 than what the subsequent bloom of animals would produce.
Just sayin its rubbish.
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Re: New NASA Data Blow Gaping Hole In Global Warming Alarmis

Post by Schneibster » Thu Sep 08, 2011 6:01 pm

mistermack wrote:
Schneibster wrote:Oops, my bad- I misinterpreted this graph: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:65_My ... Change.png, look in the lower right-hand corner. Apparently eleven million years of data have been normalized to the Vostok core ΔT.

Maybe if you were to bring these things up a) in a bit more timely fashion, and b) without embedding it in a bunch of lies and attempts to work the system?

Just sayin'.
I let it go the first time, but you were on about the vostok cores again.
Don't. I wanna know if I'm wrong.
mistermack wrote:Re you theory about a bloom of animals,
1. It's not my theory.
2. It's not a theory at all. It's a fact. Ever heard of paleontology?
mistermack wrote: has it not occurred to you that such a bloom would require an even bigger bloom of green life first?
I guess you don't know much about plankton. In any case, you're arguing against a fact established by sea bottom mud cores. Sorry you're having trouble with reality.
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Re: New NASA Data Blow Gaping Hole In Global Warming Alarmis

Post by mistermack » Thu Sep 08, 2011 6:08 pm

Schneibster wrote:
mistermack wrote: has it not occurred to you that such a bloom would require an even bigger bloom of green life first?
I guess you don't know much about plankton. In any case, you're arguing against a fact established by sea bottom mud cores. Sorry you're having trouble with reality.
So you can't answer?
I'm not surprised. Just repeating the words of others gets you into a pickle. At some point, you need to understand it.
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