I actually hate Christianity!

[Rob]

I have decided that I actively hate this religion. I hate all religions of course, with perhaps the grudging exception of Buddhism, but Christianity has that thing in common with Islam, that you are either for us or against us, you either believe us and are saved or don't and you are damned. The evil that has been done in its name is appalling and beyond description. The perfectly natural human impulses one has to reject to be a Christian is a disgrace.

Your ignorance of Christianity is...well, pretty typical of atheists. You create asinine, deliberately mendacious straw man descriptions of Christian belief and then knock them down in self-righteous smugness, but your arguments are juvenile, ill informed, ignorant and bigoted.

Lol. Seth, you are funny. If only you were not serious. Rum, my advice is ignore Seth. I would sooner talk to a door then respond to Seth, Rum. He often takes positions he doesn't hold and resorts quite so often to Reductio ad absurdum. I would almost posit that his mere presence on internet forums is to cause strife.

Debate...to cause debate. It's only strife if you're so small-minded that you are unable to tolerate diversity of opinion and argue your case without taking it too seriously. You parrot the complaints of the Ratskep intolerants who drive anyone who doesn't subscribe to the conventional wisdom out with cries of "Burn the Witch!"

And you accuse Rum of stawmen? Lol.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

Good examples. Another: Alexandria in the fourth century. The height and pinnacle of Greek and Egyptian proto-science all stored in a wonderful library. They were on the verge of working out that the earth rotated around the sun FFS. Along come the early Xians and take over the city - a 'political' act if ever there was one, drive out the Jews and burn the library.

It took 1500 years to discover (again) that the world goes around the sun. And the church fought it tooth and nail even then!

Actually, the destruction of the Library of Alexandria is disputed - as is the extent of the collection of works there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Library_of_Alexandria

Parts of the collection were almost certainly destroyed by the Romans, the early christians and the early moslems. But nobody really knows what the library contained or exactly who destroyed which part of the collection...

It's pretty much the ultimate strawman. Best not to rely on it in any argument about who's religion is worstest.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Well done, Rum. If Sith doesn't like your thoughts, you're on the right track.

[Tero]

But them Christians are everywhere! I could open a window and there would be one hiding behind the bush. Or a peeping tom. Either way. Shotgun!

[charlou]

I'm with Rum.

Also, personal experience should not be dismissed wrt acknowledging how abusive religion is, in the same way that being raped counts for a personal understanding of why sexual assault is wrong that those who've not experienced rape cannot have. And personal experience does not mean that a more general informed opinion based on facts is not possible, it just adds an element of intimate understanding.

[Hermit]

I have decided that I actively hate this religion.

Same here, and increasingly so over time. Christians may be on average less fundamentalist than adherents of the second-largest religion, but moderate strains of religion are the compost heap that fertilises religious terrorists and theocrats. Among other things that annoy me about christianity are how its adherents tend to see any criticism of the religion as a personal insult, regard religion as exempt from critical comments, and the relentless cherry picking they indulge in when consulting the bible. The double standards are as palpable as they are endemic.

[JimC]

I have decided that I actively hate this religion. I hate all religions of course, with perhaps the grudging exception of Buddhism, but Christianity has that thing in common with Islam, that you are either for us or against us, you either believe us and are saved or don't and you are damned. The evil that has been done in its name is appalling and beyond description. The perfectly natural human impulses one has to reject to be a Christian is a disgrace.

It is fucking horrible and anti-human.

Soz - been on my mind today.

Just showing my atheist credentials...

I quite agree, although I actually quite like quite a few christians...

"hate the sin, love the sinner"...

(always wanted to turn that round and use it against them...)

[egbert]

I'm undecided whether to hate the religious bullcrap or to be grateful for it keeping the ignorant hordes from killing me and stealing my stuff...

[Seth]

I'm with Rum.

Also, personal experience should not be dismissed wrt acknowledging how abusive religion is, in the same way that being raped counts for a personal understanding of why sexual assault is wrong that those who've not experienced rape cannot have. And personal experience does not mean that a more general informed opinion based on facts is not possible, it just adds an element of intimate understanding.

Wrong. This is just atheistic bigotry. Obviously, just as not all men are not rapists and cannot therefor rationally be viewed through the lens of the rape victim, not all Christians believe "that you are either for us or against us, you either believe us and are saved or don't and you are damned."

In fact, I would say that in my experience, those who hold this sort of militant radical belief in Christianity are in the exceedingly small minority, and that the vast majority of Christians are perfectly nice people who are happy to let everyone believe what they will.

Moreover, it's important, if one is a rational being and not a mere bigot spouting prejudice, to recognize that a Christian who wishes you to accept Christ as your personal savior is not performing some hostile act, he or she is trying to help you. However deluded their beliefs in the objective reality sense, if they bring the subject up, they are generally genuinely concerned not with an "us against them" attitude such as Rum suggests, but rather they are concerned with the individual's immortal soul, which they would like to see enjoy all the benefits and wonderful things that Jesus offers to those who believe in him, including eternal life.

It's not they who are condemning anyone to eternal torment, it's the individuals themselves who are doing that by rejecting the salvation that Christ died to attain for all mankind, if only they will receive it and believe.

Whether this is true or not, the motives of Christians are only rarely anything but good and altruistic. They want people to live good lives and accept Jesus and be saved from what awaits those who are either ignorant of Jesus' message or who are mired in sin and are being cozened by Satan and will therefor suffer great torments. This is not, as Rum suggests, "anti-human," it's precisely the opposite, although it may indeed be a delusion insofar as fact is concerned.

Religion exists because it is useful to individuals and societies. It has positive survival benefits for the human race, even though atheists don't like to admit it, which is why it's such an enduring institution.

So, it's simply either gross ignorance or deliberate bigotry to compare Christianity to Islam as Rum does, because it's simply not true. Sure there are some religious extremists in the Christian camp, but it's both unfair and irrational to tar every Christian with the same broad brush.

And if we're discussing comparative evil, the evil that's been done in the name of atheism and secularism has a far longer list of the dead.

[Seth]

I have decided that I actively hate this religion.

Same here, and increasingly so over time. Christians may be on average less fundamentalist than adherents of the second-largest religion, but moderate strains of religion are the compost heap that fertilises religious terrorists and theocrats. Among other things that annoy me about christianity are how its adherents tend to see any criticism of the religion as a personal insult, regard religion as exempt from critical comments, and the relentless cherry picking they indulge in when consulting the bible. The double standards are as palpable as they are endemic.

Well, religion is a very personal thing, and generally speaking, atheists are insensitive louts who have no social graces or consideration for the feelings of others. That's one of the main reasons that I eschew the use of the term as it applies to me. It's one thing to have a vigorous discussion about religion with an appropriate group under appropriate circumstances. But it's my experience that the radical atheists, the ones who pronounce their hatred for religion, and are therefore practicing religion every bit as much as the theists they decry, generally have no consideration or respect for anyone else and will insult people of faith to their face, in the most egregiously infantile and hostile terms, without regard to anything other than their own hatred and antipathy.

The vast majority of radical atheists I've met are every bit as offensive as the Westboro Baptist Church loons, and will never, ever give it a rest, even in polite company.

So, I suspect that this is why some atheists encounter ire and resistance from Christians. When you throw feces at someone, you probably ought to expect them to to be upset.

On the other hand, I've had many, many probative and interesting discussions with theists about religion, and have gone into great depth and detail in the examination of religious belief, and have almost never ended up in a shouting match. This is because I approach the subject respectfully and with due consideration for the feelings of those I'm discussing with. It is true that under close examination, they will become uncomfortable and sometimes will end the conversation by resorting to proclamations of faith, but when that happens I don't declare victory and dance around like a child, reveling in their discomfiture, I simply thank them for the interesting discussion and change the subject.

That's what rational adults do.

[HomerJay]

Where's the shit flinging smiley when you need it?

[Tigger]

<big fuck off snip to get to the point>:
...That's what rational adults do.

Rational adults don't believe in faeries.

[Rum]

On the other hand, I've had many, many probative and interesting discussions with theists about religion, and have gone into great depth and detail in the examination of religious belief, and have almost never ended up in a shouting match. This is because I approach the subject respectfully and with due consideration for the feelings of those I'm discussing with. It is true that under close examination, they will become uncomfortable and sometimes will end the conversation by resorting to proclamations of faith, but when that happens I don't declare victory and dance around like a child, reveling in their discomfiture, I simply thank them for the interesting discussion and change the subject.

That's what rational adults do.

Ah - an approach you have brought to this forum then..

[LaMont Cranston]

Rum, I'm one of the theists who is a member of this forum, and I think I'll jump into the discussion. I joined RDF a number of years ago, because I consider myself to be something of a researcher and student of life. As a young man, I was a math and science whiz, particularly chemistry, but after checking out a career in the sciences, I decided to pass. I've never regretted it!

So you actually hate Christianity! Good for you! As somebody who is interested in the ongoing and neverending discussion between believers and non-believers, I decided to join atheist, Christian, spiritual and other forums to see how people justify and explain their viewpoints/beliefs/etc. I've got to say, I think that many atheists have taken a very bad rap, but at least some of it is their own doing. I've also got to say, I agree with those people who point fingers at the scumbags and hypocrites in organized religions. Let's face it, a lot of assholes have done some really horrible things and claimed they were doing it for God, Jesus, country, honor, success, glory, etc. The fact that assholes do these things and claim they are doing it for God, etc. doesn't make it so, but, sad to say, God, Jesus and some other things can get quite a bit of bad press.

From what I can tell, whether or not God exists and the shit that religions have done in God's name are two totally different things. I enjoy most of the atheists I meet more than I enjoy the hardcore believers. In fact, those people with their "believe it our way or else" bullshit do a lot of damage, but I can't find that there's any profit to be made from hating them or what they believe.

I grew up in a Jewish family and didn't know shit about Jesus. When I became more interested in what love, consciousness, etc. was about, I started reading up on what Buddha, Jesus and a lot of others had to say. I was blown away, and I still am. I didn't go looking for Jesus, but who I found was a very powerful, charismatic guy who had a very good sense of humor. He was talking about some amazing shit, and I have found that such things as forgiveness, compassion, joy and gratitude are much more powerful than I ever imagined they'd be. I can tell you this much, Jesus wasn't a wimp!

I get that a lot of scumbags have done many horrible things in the name of Jesus. Fuck them! What I do find is that if I hate things, I am the one living with that hate. Living with hate and anger is pretty much a downer, and you're the one living with it. You, no doubt, grew up in a Judeo-Christian country, and, yes, you were exposed to a heavy dose of organized religion. I'd probably be pissed too if I'd gone through that shit, I'm also asking you to consider what hating Christianity gets you. If it gets you walking around with hate and anger, OK, fine, do that, but you might find that there are better ways to spend your time walking around with hate in your heart.

OK, Rum, over and out...

[LaMont Cranston]

To Whom It May Concern, I also might point out to all of you that we all live in this reality/illusion/state of conscousness where Christianity and other belief systems undeniably exist. How we feel about those belief systems and all the rest of that shit is another matter, but, let's face it, none of those things are going to go away any time soon.

I've got to tell you, I think that rational thinkers, whether they be atheists or not, have an incredible amount to offer the world. However, I often think that there's a rather huge difference between what we'd like to believe is rational and what is. Or, at the very minimum, the realm of the sciences cannot explain much of it at all.

So, one of the things I'm asking at least some of you to consider is what you actually get out of the act of hating, regardless of how justified who feel about living with that hate. I also might point out to you that there is absolutely no evidence and no way of knowing what the world we live in would be like without Buddha, Jesus, Moses, religion and all of those other things. Do we really have any reason to believe that rationality might have conquered the world if organized religions had not come along?

If anything, the time in which rationality is most likely to conquer the world in in this day and age. The world is in instantaneous, global communication for the first time in human history. Let's at least recognize the potential for what is possible.