Problematic Stuff

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Forty Two
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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Forty Two » Wed May 30, 2018 6:49 pm

Seabass wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 6:03 pm
Forty Two wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 4:45 pm
She's practicing the very identify politics I've been objecting to. It's why it's so pernicious. She's a member of a group, so she can tell the out-group what to do. It's the other side of the same coin.
Jesus H. Motherfucking Christ on a Vespa. They're not even remotely the same, you dolt.
Your maturity level and lack of self-control is really tiresome. Please refrain from the personal attacks.
Seabass wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 6:03 pm
Do you seriously believe that persecuted minorities banding together to fight for equality is equivalent to the persecution of minorities by the white, hetero majority? How can you not see how stupid it is to equate the two? This level of stupidity is truly something to behold.
:fp:
I don't accept your premise, and I find the ideology you espouse to be pernicious, self-defeating, internally inconsistent and contradictory. I did not say that "banding together to fight for equality is equivalent to persecution," so, of course I do not seriously believe that statement.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Forty Two » Wed May 30, 2018 6:49 pm

duplicate
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Forty Two » Wed May 30, 2018 6:51 pm

pErvinalia wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 6:21 pm
There's good people on both sides, Seabass...
There are good people in all racial groups? Of course.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by pErvinalia » Wed May 30, 2018 7:03 pm

No, the two groups I am referring to are racists and normal citizens.
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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Forty Two » Wed May 30, 2018 7:41 pm

Oh, well, racism is not, in my view, a good thing. But, I don't moralize with respect to people as "good" or "bad" people, per se. Sometimes good people do bad things. Religion, for example, can motivate people do bad things.

"I choose to believe in the basic goodness of people. I choose to believe that not all crimes are committed by bad people. And I try to understand that some very, very good people do some very bad things." - Richard Gere as Martin Vail, Primal Fear.

“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Seabass » Wed May 30, 2018 10:20 pm

Forty Two wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 6:49 pm
Seabass wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 6:03 pm
Forty Two wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 4:45 pm
She's practicing the very identify politics I've been objecting to. It's why it's so pernicious. She's a member of a group, so she can tell the out-group what to do. It's the other side of the same coin.
Jesus H. Motherfucking Christ on a Vespa. They're not even remotely the same, you dolt.
Your maturity level and lack of self-control is really tiresome. Please refrain from the personal attacks.
Seabass wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 6:03 pm
Do you seriously believe that persecuted minorities banding together to fight for equality is equivalent to the persecution of minorities by the white, hetero majority? How can you not see how stupid it is to equate the two? This level of stupidity is truly something to behold.
:fp:
I don't accept your premise, and I find the ideology you espouse to be pernicious, self-defeating, internally inconsistent and contradictory. I did not say that "banding together to fight for equality is equivalent to persecution," so, of course I do not seriously believe that statement.
What the blazes do you think identity politics is? The black civil rights movement was identity politics. Was that "pernicious, self-defeating, internally inconsistent and contradictory"?
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." —Voltaire
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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Forty Two » Wed May 30, 2018 11:30 pm

Identity Politics: The action of persons to group into race, sex, gender, or ethnicity groups to form exclusive political alliances, moving away from traditional broad-based party politics.

This is pernicious. It's also racist, sexist, or ethnocentric, depending on the group. It is divisive, and tribalistic. It's a collectivist mentality that is born of supposedly good intentions, and then gives birth to groups like the Alt-Right.

Identity politics is relished by fascists, whose racist politics include group identity in favor of a dominant race or ethnicity. It's why neonazis and the alt-right love identity politics. It's what caused some white people to view themselves as a disadvantaged group, by adopting identity politics for their own purposes. Their enemies are identified, and the good guys, themselves, are identified, by group. The individual does not matter.
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/20/opin ... .html?_r=0

Also, check out Lilla's "Once and Future Liberal." https://www.harpercollins.com/978006269 ... e-liberal/
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by pErvinalia » Wed May 30, 2018 11:57 pm

So the black civil rights movement was pernicious?
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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Seabass » Wed May 30, 2018 11:58 pm

So the black civil rights movement, in addition to being "pernicious, self-defeating, internally inconsistent and contradictory", was also "racist", "divisive", "tribalistic", "fascist", and "in favor of a dominant race or ethnicity"?

Christ almighty. Bloody fucking hell. Incredible. I am regretting unhiding your recent posts in this thread, but rEv's reply to one of them got me curious. I'm just going to go back to leaving you on ignore. I've no patience this madness.
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." —Voltaire
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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Seabass » Thu May 31, 2018 12:08 am

pErvinalia wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 11:57 pm
So the black civil rights movement was pernicious?
Yeah. Alt-right... MLK... same thing. :prof:
"Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." —Voltaire
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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Forty Two » Thu May 31, 2018 12:13 am

Who said anything like that?

Alt Right does bear similarities to Louis Farrakhan's group, that's for sure.

If you'd read what I wrote instead of what you imagine, it would be most helpful.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by pErvinalia » Thu May 31, 2018 12:18 am

He asked you whether the black civil rights movement was pernicious. You replied by defining what identity politics was (a definition that fits the black civil rights movement, as far as I can see) and said that that was pernicious. And racist etc.
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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by JimC » Thu May 31, 2018 12:25 am

The black civil rights movement was not about the superiority of blacks, or the need to keep "lesser" races in check. It was warmly supported by progressives of every colour and creed. It was fighting clear and evident injustice. To use some verbal sleight of hand to put it in the same category as the true exemplars of "identity politics", the current crop of ugly, red-necked white superiority groups, is an utter absurdity.
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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Forty Two » Thu May 31, 2018 12:32 am

pErvinalia wrote:
Wed May 30, 2018 11:57 pm
So the black civil rights movement was pernicious?
Identity politics is pernicious. MLK's civil rights position aimed toward full acceptance and integration of blacks into the mainstream American culture, rather than perpetuating that marginalization through affirmations of difference. That's why his words are now scorned by identity politics assholes, who don't agree that we should have a world where people are not judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character.

The poison of identity politics is the modern version of the segregation that Dr. King opposed, and that civil libertarians also opposed. Today, to believe as Dr. King did — that people should “not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character” — is to be seen as racist. Up is now down, and down is now up.

Laurie Rubel, a Brooklyn College math education professor who drew attention recently for saying this, as noted at Campus Reform:
Color-blindness, too, can be an issue for math teachers, according to Rubel, who asserts that “Teachers who claim color-blindness — that is, they claim to not notice the race of their students — are, in effect, refusing to acknowledge the impact of enduring racial stratification on students and their families.

“By claiming not to notice, the teacher is saying that she is dismissing one of the most salient features of the child’s identity and that she does not account for it in her curricular planning and instruction,” Rubel adds, citing education theorist Gloria Ladson-Billings.
https://www.campusreform.org/?ID=10342

Identity politics ensures that we judge by the color of our skin. Civil libertarianism is liberal. Identity politics is "progressive/leftist." That's the difference. And, that's why identity politics is pernicious, as is the leftist progressive ideology which births it.

To retreat to a position claiming that identity politics is somehow a liberal or civil liberties movement is absurd. Identity politics is more akin to fascism - it seeks to control, not free. It seeks to silence, not give voice. It seeks to oppress, not help. It is a bastardization of the liberal civil rights movement, and suggest that identity politics has anything to do with liberalism or civil libertarianism is absurd.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Problematic Stuff

Post by Forty Two » Thu May 31, 2018 12:35 am

pErvinalia wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 12:18 am
He asked you whether the black civil rights movement was pernicious. You replied by defining what identity politics was (a definition that fits the black civil rights movement, as far as I can see) and said that that was pernicious. And racist etc.
No, the black civil rights movement was not pernicious. Nor does it bear much of a resemblance to today's identity politics, which is racist and pernicious. See my last post for a broader explanation. Don't insult the civil rights movement by comparing it to identity politics.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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