The "Sanity" Rally. Is Jon Stewart naive?

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Re: The "Sanity" Rally. Is Jon Stewart naive?

Post by sandinista » Thu Nov 04, 2010 7:43 pm

Ian wrote:Fair enough indeed, Eriku. I'm going to resolve to stay away from the politics forums a lot more, if only to stay away from angry people like Sandinista a lot more. Yes - you have insulted and condescended to just about everyone who dares call you out on your outlandish points of view. So I'm suddenly being sensitive and childish, huh? That's a pathetic distortion - some people have opposing viewpoints, but you frequently make it a point to belittle your challengers' views with vitriol and charges of ignorance and being brainwashed. You think I'm getting on your case 'cause I'm thin skinned? WRONG - IT'S BECAUSE I'M SICK OF SEING YOUR BILE AROUND THIS FORUM, even when I'm not interacting with you.

Once upon a time I thought I might like to be a cop. Then I realized that I'd be dealing with angry, trashy people every day. And that would make me angry in turn, having them always in my face. I don't like angry people. So I'm getting away from the politics forum for a while.
oh no...please don't go what will we do without your outlandish points of view?? I'm not so sick of your bile, it actually amuses me :lol: The only angry person in the conversation is you, that is obvious. Maybe I'll have to start visiting the other forums around here a bit more :hehe:
Our struggle is not against actual corrupt individuals, but against those in power in general, against their authority, against the global order and the ideological mystification which sustains it.

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Re: The "Sanity" Rally. Is Jon Stewart naive?

Post by camoguard » Thu Nov 04, 2010 7:58 pm

I vote for more than one thread related conversation at a time. http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 75#p651048

Oh, and I specifically like disagreeing with Sand. I think I've done so back when RDF was a place to hang at.

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Re: The "Sanity" Rally. Is Jon Stewart naive?

Post by sandinista » Thu Nov 04, 2010 8:15 pm

camoguard wrote:I vote for more than one thread related conversation at a time. http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 75#p651048

Oh, and I specifically like disagreeing with Sand. I think I've done so back when RDF was a place to hang at.
You mean I didn't hurt your feelings with my "vitriol" attacks?? ;ob;
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Re: The "Sanity" Rally. Is Jon Stewart naive?

Post by Warren Dew » Thu Nov 04, 2010 9:09 pm

maiforpeace wrote:Warren and CES - would you be open to splitting off the domestic manufacturing part of discussion in a new thread?
I'd have no problem with a split; in fact I'd prefer it.

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Re: The "Sanity" Rally. Is Jon Stewart naive?

Post by camoguard » Fri Nov 05, 2010 1:36 pm

sandinista wrote:
camoguard wrote:I vote for more than one thread related conversation at a time. http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 75#p651048

Oh, and I specifically like disagreeing with Sand. I think I've done so back when RDF was a place to hang at.
You mean I didn't hurt your feelings with my "vitriol" attacks?? ;ob;
No. You just have a weird (read: not my) perspective. How dare you.

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Re: The "Sanity" Rally. Is Jon Stewart naive?

Post by Mahou » Fri Nov 05, 2010 3:44 pm

You know what, sand? I know you think you're just being unfairly attacked by whiny babies, but you really have been nothing but unpleasant this whole thread. As an outsider here, I've been reading this whole thread and noticed that you've just been generally demeaning and mean. You even started off by calling the entire rally a
sandinista wrote:Bunch of centrist, naive, capitalism with a happy face, star worshipers.
You have refused to accept that there might be intelligent, reasonable people who hold these viewpoints, instead opting to just insult the entire ideology and refuse to concede anything. Ian has had moments of assholery as well, but he has apologized at points where I haven't seen any such courtesy from you. You even took me seriously on my one post, when I made a clear joke.

No, you're not angry or mad, you're just generally unpleasant. I would appreciate it if instead of just blowing me and my criticisms off as just so many words, you try to see why people might be upset by your statements, or at least attempt to listen when people try to call you out on them.
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Re: The "Sanity" Rally. Is Jon Stewart naive?

Post by Warren Dew » Fri Nov 05, 2010 4:33 pm

Mahou wrote:No, you're not angry or mad, you're just generally unpleasant. I would appreciate it if instead of just blowing me and my criticisms off as just so many words, you try to see why people might be upset by your statements, or at least attempt to listen when people try to call you out on them.
Anyone who has a rationally coherent viewpoint isn't going to get upset by sandinista's posts. The only reason to get upset is when he says something one can't refute.

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Re: The "Sanity" Rally. Is Jon Stewart naive?

Post by camoguard » Fri Nov 05, 2010 7:25 pm

Hey, if sand was wrong, it's hard to see how. The blue voters were all pretty much alive in the same proportions. They just didn't come out to vote. And yet the rally was one of the biggest in D.C. Somebody was naive and the midterms paid for it.

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Re: The "Sanity" Rally. Is Jon Stewart naive?

Post by maiforpeace » Fri Nov 05, 2010 7:42 pm

Warren Dew wrote:
Mahou wrote:No, you're not angry or mad, you're just generally unpleasant. I would appreciate it if instead of just blowing me and my criticisms off as just so many words, you try to see why people might be upset by your statements, or at least attempt to listen when people try to call you out on them.
Anyone who has a rationally coherent viewpoint isn't going to get upset by sandinista's posts. The only reason to get upset is when he says something one can't refute.
I can totally understand why some people might get upset at the level of discourse and choose to remove themselves from it, and it doesn't have anything to do with whether Sandinista is refuting an argument or not. I would not characterize Sandinista as someone who is fun to discuss anything with. :ddpan:

It's all just talk... and for some of us vigorous discussion isn't worth the trouble if it degenerates into getting ugly and nasty.
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Re: The "Sanity" Rally. Is Jon Stewart naive?

Post by Mahou » Fri Nov 05, 2010 8:08 pm

Warren Dew wrote:
Mahou wrote:No, you're not angry or mad, you're just generally unpleasant. I would appreciate it if instead of just blowing me and my criticisms off as just so many words, you try to see why people might be upset by your statements, or at least attempt to listen when people try to call you out on them.
Anyone who has a rationally coherent viewpoint isn't going to get upset by sandinista's posts. The only reason to get upset is when he says something one can't refute.
I guess not liking being called a centrist, naive, capitalism with a happy face, star worshiper makes me irrational. I forgot that most rational people like being blatantly insulted.
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Re: The "Sanity" Rally. Is Jon Stewart naive?

Post by Trolldor » Fri Nov 05, 2010 9:10 pm

The Mad Hatter wrote:
sandinista wrote:I can't believe you don't know the answer. Never heard of neo liberalism? A genius like yourself? A man who knows international law inside and out, who knows the political structure, nuances, and struggles of every single country on earth. Come on...now you're just pulling me leg.
Can't answer it can you?
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Re: The "Sanity" Rally. Is Jon Stewart naive?

Post by sandinista » Sat Nov 06, 2010 7:04 am

Mahou wrote:
Warren Dew wrote:
Mahou wrote:No, you're not angry or mad, you're just generally unpleasant. I would appreciate it if instead of just blowing me and my criticisms off as just so many words, you try to see why people might be upset by your statements, or at least attempt to listen when people try to call you out on them.
Anyone who has a rationally coherent viewpoint isn't going to get upset by sandinista's posts. The only reason to get upset is when he says something one can't refute.
I guess not liking being called a centrist, naive, capitalism with a happy face, star worshiper makes me irrational. I forgot that most rational people like being blatantly insulted.
ahhh you're just annoyed because you thought you "had me" by saying "smart people attend large rallies" when I showed that to be an utter falsity you were insulted. My whole quote was: "I would bet if you scoured the crowd not many people there would truly be "left" in any way. Bunch of centrist, naive, capitalism with a happy face, star worshipers." Meaning...most people at the rally probably wouldn't have been considered leftist in any sense, and most likely wouldn't consider themselves leftist either. That was a response to Warren Dew saying "The "sanity" rally was just a bunch of leftists who secretly realize that Obama went too far, but aren't willing to admit it to themselves yet.". Context! You really don't think most people at the rally were centrists? Or would consider themselves centrist? Most would also support capitalism with a happy face as well. Most likely a lot of star worshipers as well. Not sure what is an insult...the word "naive?" I'm sorry if I think "democratic" supporters are naive...but I do.
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Re: The "Sanity" Rally. Is Jon Stewart naive?

Post by eXcommunicate » Sat Nov 06, 2010 3:43 pm

I'm sorry if I think "democratic" supporters are naive...but I do.
I support the Democrats because they are slightly to the left of the traditional Republican line. Are they "left enough" for me? No. Then why don't I support a 3rd party, like the Greens? Because the Greens will never gain power. Ever. 1.) They are disorganized, 2.) more importantly, our election system will never allow the rise of a 3rd party. See: Duverger's Law. If a 3rd party does miraculously come to prominence, it is always at the expense of its closest aligned "major" party, splitting the vote and handing power to their common enemy. See: UK's recent election, where the "left" won the majority of votes, yet the right won power. If a 3rd party becomes powerful enough, it will simply replace one of the existing 2 major parties and just become "the other" major party of the 2-party system, leaving the overall system, which is really the problem, mostly intact.

Then, you say, if the Greens replace the Democratic Party, wouldn't that be better for leftists like yourself? No. The Greens will be forced to expand their tent to include centrist and center-right candidates, just like the Democrats did. To be a "major" party is to be a big tent party. The Greens will simply be the Democrats, but with a different name. Without election reform, supporting a 3rd party is an ultimately futile endeavor. Is this a "naive" standpoint? To me, all the people jumping up and down about supporting 3rd parties are the naive ones, and I have illustrated why.

Ironically, modern Progressives can learn a lot from the Tea Party and how they've managed to push the Republican Party further right than ever before in American history. They saw the 2008 election defeat not as a reason to hand-wring and re-evaluate their beliefs and policy goals--they saw it as a test of faith. You see, they are True Believers™ in their ideology, and like fundamentalists everywhere, defeat is viewed as a test that must be overcome. Re-evaluate their beliefs? No, they doubled down, organized, agitated, and primaried the Hell out of more "centrist" Republican candidates. Now, 2010 saw quite a few Tea Party darlings go down in flames, but the goal is not necessarily to win elections; the goal is to push the party toward your views. That's what Progressives used to do. From the 1910s to 1970, Progressives knew how to make the political system work for them. Somewhere along the way they forgot how. The irony is the Tea Party might re-teach us that lesson.
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Re: The "Sanity" Rally. Is Jon Stewart naive?

Post by sandinista » Sat Nov 06, 2010 7:43 pm

eXcommunicate wrote:
I'm sorry if I think "democratic" supporters are naive...but I do.
I support the Democrats because they are slightly to the left of the traditional Republican line. Are they "left enough" for me? No. Then why don't I support a 3rd party, like the Greens? Because the Greens will never gain power. Ever. 1.) They are disorganized, 2.) more importantly, our election system will never allow the rise of a 3rd party. See: Duverger's Law. If a 3rd party does miraculously come to prominence, it is always at the expense of its closest aligned "major" party, splitting the vote and handing power to their common enemy. See: UK's recent election, where the "left" won the majority of votes, yet the right won power. If a 3rd party becomes powerful enough, it will simply replace one of the existing 2 major parties and just become "the other" major party of the 2-party system, leaving the overall system, which is really the problem, mostly intact.

Then, you say, if the Greens replace the Democratic Party, wouldn't that be better for leftists like yourself? No. The Greens will be forced to expand their tent to include centrist and center-right candidates, just like the Democrats did. To be a "major" party is to be a big tent party. The Greens will simply be the Democrats, but with a different name. Without election reform, supporting a 3rd party is an ultimately futile endeavor. Is this a "naive" standpoint? To me, all the people jumping up and down about supporting 3rd parties are the naive ones, and I have illustrated why.

Ironically, modern Progressives can learn a lot from the Tea Party and how they've managed to push the Republican Party further right than ever before in American history. They saw the 2008 election defeat not as a reason to hand-wring and re-evaluate their beliefs and policy goals--they saw it as a test of faith. You see, they are True Believers™ in their ideology, and like fundamentalists everywhere, defeat is viewed as a test that must be overcome. Re-evaluate their beliefs? No, they doubled down, organized, agitated, and primaried the Hell out of more "centrist" Republican candidates. Now, 2010 saw quite a few Tea Party darlings go down in flames, but the goal is not necessarily to win elections; the goal is to push the party toward your views. That's what Progressives used to do. From the 1910s to 1970, Progressives knew how to make the political system work for them. Somewhere along the way they forgot how. The irony is the Tea Party might re-teach us that lesson.
hey, good scathing critique of western "democracy". The "green split" you are talking about is exactly what happened in canaduh. The "greens" simply took away votes that the ndp (our quarter inch left of center party) would have gotten. Doesn't really matter anyway because we have only ever had two parties win federally. Yes...the 2 party/same ideology system rears its ugly head again...oh wonderful "democracy". I would never vote "green", I have no time for that hippy shit. ;) Of course I do agree with not destroying the planet, but I don't think a political party should have a one issue platform. I also find green supporters and candidates quite flaky and (everyone's favorite word) naive. I think that the best option now, with "democracy" really showing its true face (two party same ideology, basically a corporatocracy) is to not vote at all. Seems like people are already realizing that, in canaduh we get just over 50 percent generally. Not sure about the US, I think on Bill Maher last night he said 11 % of 18-25 year olds voted (not sure of the exact numbers)...low anyway. The less people that vote the less the system is legitimized.
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Re: The "Sanity" Rally. Is Jon Stewart naive?

Post by Warren Dew » Sat Nov 06, 2010 10:09 pm

maiforpeace wrote:I can totally understand why some people might get upset at the level of discourse and choose to remove themselves from it, and it doesn't have anything to do with whether Sandinista is refuting an argument or not.
If you reread my post, you'll see that my point had to do with whether the other person was able to refute Sandinista, not whether he is able to refute them. He makes a point, they don't like being challenged with an argument they think is wrong but can't think of a valid counterargument to, they get annoyed.
I would not characterize Sandinista as someone who is fun to discuss anything with. :ddpan:
I find it fun. "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me."

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