Polyglots?

[Eriku]

OK, all you Western European speakers, I'll rephrase:
Do you honestly consider someone who can speak Japanese but not read it to be fluent? If so, why can't they do my job?

Of course s/he's fluent... If not literate. It's elitist to demand literacy. Some languages don't have an orthography, y'know? Doesn't make it any less of a language to me.

Literacy is elitist? Says the man who can read and write.

Why the smug smiley? You misread me, for one... I said it's elitist to DEMAND literacy... Does it not seem a credible stance on my part due to my being able to read and write? If so, explain.

So many things of what you say seem to miss the point. You take people's hypotheticals, change the criteria, and then proclaim a victory in favour of your own argument.

Btw, I'd love a link to your claim about immersion being unproductive after the age of 12. Not saying I think you're lying, I've just never come across it myself.

Anyway... stating that literacy is a requirement is basically dismissing a boatload of languages which have no orthography. Of course someone can be fluent and not master writing. If they can communicate their own thoughts and comprehend the ones others are putting forward in the language, and if they master the intricacies of things like prosody, the language's (or dialect's) phonemes, etc. then I'd say they're fluent.

Also, I didn't learn my irregular verbs in English through memorisation... It came to me naturally through my being exposed to far too much television, engaging English speakers on every opportunity, and just generally using the language a great deal. My fluency is actually higher than a great deal native English speakers, which should be impossible according to your claims.

And my experiences in South America trying to learn Spanish and Portuguese without a teacher, through listening intently and NOT through rote learning, proved to be far more successful than me trying to learn German, which even has a shedload of cognates to Norwegian.

To me a lot of your claims just don't ring true at all... Not when compared to my own experiences, nor what I've read and learnt about linguistics.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I was thinking of the Dukes of Hazard, actually.

I know nothing about the Dukes of Hazard, sorry.

US Southern "red necks" are often referred to as "crackers", especially the ones from Georgia.

[Ronja]

I was thinking of the Dukes of Hazard, actually.

I know nothing about the Dukes of Hazard, sorry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dukes_of_Hazzard - as simple as that.

Or did you actually intend to convey this message ('cause on the meta message level it reads pretty loud and clear): "I'm too lazy to google, and too arrogant or stupid to not flaunt my ignorance" - ?

Please note that you did not get directly - that's my "innocent or forgiven until third offense" policy. Have a nice day!

[Kimpatsu]

We're both entrenched in our positions, and others in this thread have reported experiences that support Krashen's Second Language Acquisition Theory and The Natural Approach. I've got a deadline to meet on this research paper, so I'll end with letting you know that the [url=http://www.lotpublications.nl/publish/a ... okpart.pdf]Critical Period Hypothesis

is exactly that: a hypothesis. It's still being debated and there are studies that suggest it is a flawed concept.
Nice chatting with you. [/quote]
I'm not entrenched in my position; if you can show proper statistical evidence with a funnel plot that your method of "suck it and see" is truly more effective than my already-proven method of hard work and effort, with a reasonably-sized cohort for both your trial and control groups, then I'll listen. Until then, I'll stick to recommending what I KNOW works.
Nice talking to you, too. BTW; is that a crown or a tiara you're wearing?

[FBM]

Done working on the paper for the evening, so may as well indulge a bit...

I'm not entrenched in my position;

Oh. Maybe it's just me.

if you can show proper statistical evidence with a funnel plot that your method of "suck it and see"

I'm obviously missing out on something that's going through your head in this discussion.

is truly more effective than my already-proven method of hard work and effort, with a reasonably-sized cohort for both your trial and control groups, then I'll listen.

So far, I'm the only one of us who has produced scholarship of any type in this exchange. Making unreasonable and excessive demands of evidence from others while providing none yourself...????

Until then, I'll stick to recommending what I KNOW works.

Which is exactly what I'm doing.

Snark aside for a moment, the methods you ascribe to are very successful in producing skilled translators of written materials, which, I gather, you are. In Korea's and Japan's early days of modernization, there were few Westerners in residence in those countries. Their main sources of scientific and technical information was from the written media of textbooks and journals. Therefore, they quite rightfully adopted the Grammar-Translation Method to address their needs. As long as nothing more than translating written materials is the target skill, that method is appropriate. However, my students need oral communication skills. Most of the larger corporations that hire them after graduation are requiring TOEIC Speaking and OPIC test scores as part of their selection process. As the world becomes more globalized and mobile, productive language skills are increasing in demand. The Natural Approach and Second Language Acquisition Theory are better suited for the skills my students require. When I do teach translation and writing classes, I revert to the Grammar-Translation Method, with the added nuance of Comparative Grammar/Syntax, etc.

So, for me, it's just a matter of choosing the better tool for the job. What you're after is quite different from what my students need/demand, so it's hardly surprising that different tools, methods and approaches are appropriate for each of us. If I've given you the impression that I disrespect or disregard your individual accomplishments, it's almost certainly due to my flawed representation of my position.

Nice talking to you, too. BTW; is that a crown or a tiara you're wearing?

Tiara. It was forced upon me. As were the overalls and sleeveless plaid shirt.

[Kimpatsu]

So far, I'm the only one of us who has produced scholarship of any type in this exchange.

Scholarship involves mathematical analysis with grpahs and projections. It is a fact that SOAS and SEESS turn out linguists every eyar by traditional methods; where is the comparable person who's gone through the "learn from your girlfriend" method?
BTW, the tiara is very fetching.

[FBM]

So far, I'm the only one of us who has produced scholarship of any type in this exchange.

Scholarship involves mathematical analysis with grpahs and projections. It is a fact that SOAS and SEESS turn out linguists every eyar by traditional methods; where is the comparable person who's gone through the "learn from your girlfriend" method?

Where's the success from the strawman argument method? I've produced scholarly materials in this discussion, you haven't.

BTW, the tiara is very fetching.

Thank you. I keep it in my closet.







Hidden from my girlfriend.

[Eriku]

Where's the success from the strawman argument method? I've produced scholarly materials in this discussion, you haven't.

seconded... there are plenty of people who have a HIGH competence within a language without being able to parse a sentence, or what have you. I'm surrounded by a shedload of people who won't be able to tell a noun from their elbows, but who nonetheless are far better at applying the Norwegian grammar than a linguist who's never delved into the language.

[Svartalf]

Bokmal, Landsmal or Nynorsk?

[Eriku]

Bokmal, Landsmal or Nynorsk?

samnorsk

joking aside, I'm supposed to be in an area where nynorsk is the written form, but it's losing ground here as well, due to people not being exposed to it as much as bokmål and whatnot on the telly... I'm the last of a dying breed

[Jay G]

I speak double-talk. Does that count?

[Svartalf]

I speak double-talk. Does that count?

Only if you're a child of the double cross and revere the great dictator.

[Eriku]

I speak double-talk. Does that count?

iuno, but it sounds double plus good, brother.

[Jay G]

I speak double-talk. Does that count?

iuno, but it sounds double plus good, brother.

Oh, and I forgot jibberish! That's two extra languages I speak along with English and American.

[Eriku]

I speak double-talk. Does that count?

iuno, but it sounds double plus good, brother.

Oh, and I forgot jibberish! That's two extra languages I speak along with English and American.

That wasn't gibberish... it was Newspeak, you philistine!