Atheist Group Wants 911 Cross Removed

[cursuswalker]

One third of those killed on 9/11 in New York were not Christians. Where are their religious symbols?

[hadespussercats]

450attackstradecentercross.jpg

Funny... well, not funny, but whatever... a church a few blocks from my apt has a steel girder cross from the Towers in its sideyard. It took me a while, first time I saw it, to understand why it was there.

Makes me wonder how long it'll be before every church wants one.

Hm.

[hadespussercats]

Strap the ol' starz'n'stripes to it. Cos y'all know jeebus was a Merkin, right!

Regardless of the take on the girder, the flag at least is an appropriate memorial for an attack on American citizens.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

Strap the ol' starz'n'stripes to it. Cos y'all know jeebus was a Merkin, right!

Regardless of the take on the girder, the flag at least is an appropriate memorial for an attack on American citizens.

372 of the people that died in the attacks weren't American. 67 came from the UK. Thankyou.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties ... casualties

[hadespussercats]

Strap the ol' starz'n'stripes to it. Cos y'all know jeebus was a Merkin, right!

Regardless of the take on the girder, the flag at least is an appropriate memorial for an attack on American citizens.

372 of the people that died in the attacks weren't American. 67 came from the UK. Thankyou.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties ... casualties

Yes.

It was an attack on American soil. I'm not saying non-American victims don't deserve to be remembered too.

[FBM]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_r4pKC4_ ... re=related[/youtube]

[Xamonas Chegwé]

Strap the ol' starz'n'stripes to it. Cos y'all know jeebus was a Merkin, right!

Regardless of the take on the girder, the flag at least is an appropriate memorial for an attack on American citizens.

372 of the people that died in the attacks weren't American. 67 came from the UK. Thankyou.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties ... casualties

Yes.

It was an attack on American soil. I'm not saying non-American victims don't deserve to be remembered too.

But you said, "American citizens". I'm not singling you out for criticism - I am sure it was a subconscious slip of the keys on your part - it's just that people over there tend to forget that 9/11 wasn't simply an attack on America. It was an attack on the whole western ethos of commerce, religious freedom and democracy. Something that, however much they may think they do, the US of A does not embody; but is simply a part of.

[charlou]

Why was that particular piece of rubble chosen over all the other stuff? Because it looks like a cross sent to duh'merkins by gwod to show his support for xtians over islam. It's a tacit declaration that the US is a xtian nation. It's self-righteous and inflammatory, and it violates the constitutional separation of church and state for the gummit to spend one tax dime on it.

I agree with you, and that is particularly apparent from the fireman's comments in the second video Gallstones posted.

I think the controversy that allowing its continued presence in the museum would generate may be a good thing. It draws attention to the way people find symbolism and ascribe meaning to meaningless objects. It demonstrates the way people will apply confirmation bias to just about any object and/or event. It shows how superstitious people are, how superficial people can be, and how people allow emotion to dictate rationale.

Would opinion pieces in blogs and articles be enough to stir up debate and raise awareness? Perhaps, by this lawsuit, the atheist organisation has focused attention and controversy on this in the most effective way possible.

[FBM]

Yes, for people who think about such things in abstract ways, it could be an example of how people project meaning into meaningless objects, etc. The Babble-thumpers who are trying to get their agenda legitimized by the top teirs of the gummit won't take that angle, of course.

[hadespussercats]

Strap the ol' starz'n'stripes to it. Cos y'all know jeebus was a Merkin, right!

Regardless of the take on the girder, the flag at least is an appropriate memorial for an attack on American citizens.

372 of the people that died in the attacks weren't American. 67 came from the UK. Thankyou.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties ... casualties

Yes.

It was an attack on American soil. I'm not saying non-American victims don't deserve to be remembered too.

But you said, "American citizens". I'm not singling you out for criticism - I am sure it was a subconscious slip of the keys on your part - it's just that people over there tend to forget that 9/11 wasn't simply an attack on America. It was an attack on the whole western ethos of commerce, religious freedom and democracy. Something that, however much they may think they do, the US of A does not embody; but is simply a part of.

It feels a little different when it happens in your hometown.

But yes, you have a point.

[charlou]

Yes, for people who think about such things in abstract ways, it could be an example of how people project meaning into meaningless objects, etc. The Babble-thumpers who are trying to get their agenda legitimized by the top teirs of the gummit won't take that angle, of course.

They're going to continue on that course regardless of the presence of that bit of debris in the museum. Meanwhile, it's presence will generate discussion and debate. Not everyone who visits will view it with passive acceptance and/or pious reverence. I think forcing its removal would skew debate in a way that would leave those who were in favour of its presence feeling their freedom of religion and expression has been oppressed, thus making the debate from their side even more emotional (even martyr-like) and entrenched, and even less likely to consider the opposing view rationally.

[Hermit]

I am ambiguous on this issue. Yes, Blair Scott and the American Atheists will be viewed as a bunch of whingers - the atheist equivalent of christian evangelists - with their campaign. On the other hand, as FBM concisely and succinctly put it: "It's childish only if you live in a country where the religious right is not trying to take control of your gummit to force a theocracy on the citizens." And that is precisely what is at the heart of this issue:

http://www.werismyki.com/artcls/cross_gives_hope.htm

Left standing amid the rubble at Ground Zero, the cross is also a symbol of hope for a nation devastated in the last half-century by moral decline and court rulings that displace God from public life. And while our nation has yet to learn all the lessons of 9/11, Dr. Kennedy harbors hope for our land. “I believe America can be reclaimed,” he said. “I believe that this nation can be brought back to God.”

So, on balance, I am on the AA's side, despite it being a public relations debacle and despite the chances of their effort succeeding in the short or medium term being no greater than getting the slogan "In God we trust" removed from US coins and bills.

[Robert_S]

I think forcing its removal would skew debate in a way that would leave those who were in favour of its presence feeling their freedom of religion and expression has been oppressed, thus making the debate from their side even more emotional (even martyr-like) and entrenched, and even less likely to consider the opposing view rationally.

I agree, but I also can't help feeling "Fuck 'em they always feel that way"

[Gallstones]

I just looked at a quarter, a dime, a nickle and a penny. "In God we trust" is only on the nickle and the penny.
It is on all the bills.

I wonder how many people notice, care and ascribe meaning to that?

[FBM]

What's printed on money is something that we grew up with. It hardly has the emotional or ideological impact of the 9/11 memorial. Gallstones, would you be OK with the gummit spending tax dollars erecting xtian monuments across the country to commemorate whatever they decided was symbolic of being American? If we give them this big one, what chance is there of stopping them from continuing to do so? I see a theocracy developing unless someone puts up meaningful resistance. Nobody is denying any of the survivors their right to hold religious services. But I do think we need to deny the Babble-thumpers this most powerful and lasting platform from which to spew their nonsense about being patriotic means being xtian.