American Drone Attack in Pakistan Kills German

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Coito ergo sum
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Re: American Drone Attack in Pakistan Kills German

Post by Coito ergo sum » Wed Dec 08, 2010 6:02 pm

sandinista wrote:
That's not what I said, and as usual you ignore the issue we're talking about.

It's not "either with us or against us." I don't give a flying rat's ass if you're "against us." I'm taking issue with what you are calling "terrorism."
You are so, read your own quote, here I'll highlight it for you to make it easier. "and suggest that the US is in the wrong, and the people that blow up civilians in cafes are in the right." One is WRONG the other RIGHT. So, that IS what you are saying, clearly. Because the US is a terrorist state does NOT mean that Islamic suicide bombers are somehow NOT terrorists or in the right. Its not one or the other. Take issue all you want, won't change the facts.[/quote]

Uhhh...quote the complete sentence, at least.

Remember - it's that YOU were creating a false equivalence to suggest that the US is in the wrong and that people who blow up civilians in cafes are in the right. That in now way implies that I think you're either "with us or against us."

The US simply is not a terrorist state. Yours is just another version or corollary to Godwin's Law. It's like saying the US is a fascist state like Hitler's Germany. Of course it isn't, and you're talking nonsensical hyperbole.

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Re: American Drone Attack in Pakistan Kills German

Post by Warren Dew » Wed Dec 08, 2010 7:01 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:Neither Iraq nor Afghanistan is an act of terrorism. They are wars. The US didn't target civilians - the targets were the enemy combatants.
That's true for the Iraq War, Afghanistan. Civilians killed in those wars really were largely collateral damage when targeting military objectives, rather than being the primary targets of the attacks themselves.

However, the U.S. has targeted civilians on other occasions, for example at Dresden, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki. Even during the Gulf War, the U.S. purposely targeted civilian office buildings in Iraq. That's not much different from Al Qaeda targeting the Pentagon or the World Trade Center towers.

One could even argue that the U.S. pioneered military terrorism in Sherman's march to the sea.

I do think there are real differences between the U.S. and Al Qaeda, but it's not as simple as them using terrorist tactics and us not.

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Re: American Drone Attack in Pakistan Kills German

Post by JimC » Wed Dec 08, 2010 9:16 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:
sandinista wrote:
That's not what I said, and as usual you ignore the issue we're talking about.

It's not "either with us or against us." I don't give a flying rat's ass if you're "against us." I'm taking issue with what you are calling "terrorism."
You are so, read your own quote, here I'll highlight it for you to make it easier. "and suggest that the US is in the wrong, and the people that blow up civilians in cafes are in the right." One is WRONG the other RIGHT. So, that IS what you are saying, clearly. Because the US is a terrorist state does NOT mean that Islamic suicide bombers are somehow NOT terrorists or in the right. Its not one or the other. Take issue all you want, won't change the facts.
CES wrote:

Uhhh...quote the complete sentence, at least.

Remember - it's that YOU were creating a false equivalence to suggest that the US is in the wrong and that people who blow up civilians in cafes are in the right. That in now way implies that I think you're either "with us or against us."

The US simply is not a terrorist state. Yours is just another version or corollary to Godwin's Law. It's like saying the US is a fascist state like Hitler's Germany. Of course it isn't, and you're talking nonsensical hyperbole.
To be fair to sandinista, his clumsy double negative did imply that he agrees that Islamic suicide bombers ARE terrorists, and therefore he is not claiming they are in the right...

The main problem is the inflated, exaggerated hyperbole of his claim that the US is a major terrorist state, and his refusal to give documented examples of US military forces, in say the last 20 years, deliberately targetting civilians. Perhaps Warren's example of attacks on office blocks in the Gulf War may be one, I'm not sure...

But in Afghanistan, at least, civilian casualties have indeed been inadvertent, and US and other western forces have a strong motivation to minimize them...
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Re: American Drone Attack in Pakistan Kills German

Post by Blondie » Wed Dec 08, 2010 9:18 pm

Gawdzilla wrote:
sandinista wrote:
Tigger wrote:I'm fucking pleased I never get as angry as this about anything.
ohhh internet anger! :gaah:
Troll.
Pot meet Kettle. :lol:
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Re: American Drone Attack in Pakistan Kills German

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Dec 08, 2010 9:20 pm

Anthroban wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote:
sandinista wrote:
Tigger wrote:I'm fucking pleased I never get as angry as this about anything.
ohhh internet anger! :gaah:
Troll.
Pot meet Kettle. :lol:
I troll trolls. It's fun to see their confusion when they get hit with their own shit.
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Re: American Drone Attack in Pakistan Kills German

Post by sandinista » Wed Dec 08, 2010 11:07 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:
sandinista wrote:
That's not what I said, and as usual you ignore the issue we're talking about.

It's not "either with us or against us." I don't give a flying rat's ass if you're "against us." I'm taking issue with what you are calling "terrorism."
You are so, read your own quote, here I'll highlight it for you to make it easier. "and suggest that the US is in the wrong, and the people that blow up civilians in cafes are in the right." One is WRONG the other RIGHT. So, that IS what you are saying, clearly. Because the US is a terrorist state does NOT mean that Islamic suicide bombers are somehow NOT terrorists or in the right. Its not one or the other. Take issue all you want, won't change the facts.
Uhhh...quote the complete sentence, at least.

Remember - it's that YOU were creating a false equivalence to suggest that the US is in the wrong and that people who blow up civilians in cafes are in the right. That in now way implies that I think you're either "with us or against us."

The US simply is not a terrorist state. Yours is just another version or corollary to Godwin's Law. It's like saying the US is a fascist state like Hitler's Germany. Of course it isn't, and you're talking nonsensical hyperbole.[/quote]

again, there is NO false equivalence. That is in YOUR mind. AND again...you go with the "wit us or wit da terrorists" with "to suggest that the US is in the wrong and that people who blow up civilians in cafes are in the right." When did I say anything of the sort? Get over that line of reasoning because it is not only wrong, but ridiculous.
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Re: American Drone Attack in Pakistan Kills German

Post by Coito ergo sum » Wed Dec 08, 2010 11:20 pm

sandinista wrote:[

again, there is NO false equivalence. That is in YOUR mind. AND again...you go with the "wit us or wit da terrorists" with "to suggest that the US is in the wrong and that people who blow up civilians in cafes are in the right." When did I say anything of the sort? Get over that line of reasoning because it is not only wrong, but ridiculous.
No - the equivalence is in your mind. The falsity is obvious.

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Re: American Drone Attack in Pakistan Kills German

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Dec 08, 2010 11:30 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:
sandinista wrote:[

again, there is NO false equivalence. That is in YOUR mind. AND again...you go with the "wit us or wit da terrorists" with "to suggest that the US is in the wrong and that people who blow up civilians in cafes are in the right." When did I say anything of the sort? Get over that line of reasoning because it is not only wrong, but ridiculous.
No - the equivalence is in your mind. The falsity is deliberate.
:fix:
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Re: American Drone Attack in Pakistan Kills German

Post by Trolldor » Wed Dec 08, 2010 11:34 pm

Actually, sandy, you have stated numerous times that you believe that the terrorists' opposition to America is righteous, and the fact that they cause quite a lot of civilian deaths - I think it's 70% in Afghanistan - seems to have escaped you.
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Re: American Drone Attack in Pakistan Kills German

Post by sandinista » Thu Dec 09, 2010 12:00 am

The Mad Hatter wrote:Actually, sandy, you have stated numerous times that you believe that the terrorists' opposition to America is righteous, and the fact that they cause quite a lot of civilian deaths - I think it's 70% in Afghanistan - seems to have escaped you.
Numerous times huh? Example(s)? I imagine you, like usual, have taken something out of context.
Coito ergo sum wrote:
sandinista wrote:[

again, there is NO false equivalence. That is in YOUR mind. AND again...you go with the "wit us or wit da terrorists" with "to suggest that the US is in the wrong and that people who blow up civilians in cafes are in the right." When did I say anything of the sort? Get over that line of reasoning because it is not only wrong, but ridiculous.
No - the equivalence is in your mind. The falsity is obvious.
No - I have drawn no "equivalence" with anything, just stated the obvious, that the US is a major perpetrator of terror. Any "falsity" is in your minge.

:fix:
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Re: American Drone Attack in Pakistan Kills German

Post by sandinista » Thu Dec 09, 2010 12:25 am

Gawdzilla wrote:Damn, I do love it when somebody uses "of course". It means they have quit thinking about the issue.
So, according to you I guess coito has quit thinking about the issue. hmmm one of the rare times we agree. :smoke:
sandinista wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:
sandinista wrote:
That's not what I said, and as usual you ignore the issue we're talking about.

It's not "either with us or against us." I don't give a flying rat's ass if you're "against us." I'm taking issue with what you are calling "terrorism."
You are so, read your own quote, here I'll highlight it for you to make it easier. "and suggest that the US is in the wrong, and the people that blow up civilians in cafes are in the right." One is WRONG the other RIGHT. So, that IS what you are saying, clearly. Because the US is a terrorist state does NOT mean that Islamic suicide bombers are somehow NOT terrorists or in the right. Its not one or the other. Take issue all you want, won't change the facts.
Uhhh...quote the complete sentence, at least.

Remember - it's that YOU were creating a false equivalence to suggest that the US is in the wrong and that people who blow up civilians in cafes are in the right. That in now way implies that I think you're either "with us or against us."

The US simply is not a terrorist state. Yours is just another version or corollary to Godwin's Law. It's like saying the US is a fascist state like Hitler's Germany. Of course it isn't, and you're talking nonsensical hyperbole.
Our struggle is not against actual corrupt individuals, but against those in power in general, against their authority, against the global order and the ideological mystification which sustains it.

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Re: American Drone Attack in Pakistan Kills German

Post by Coito ergo sum » Thu Dec 09, 2010 2:26 pm

sandinista wrote:[

No - I have drawn no "equivalence" with anything, just stated the obvious, that the US is a major perpetrator of terror. Any "falsity" is in your minge.

:fix:
"a" major perpetrator? You said before "the biggest" perpetrator, or words to that effect.

If you are reducing your allegation to "a" major perpetrator, then I would need you to define how major it is. Even perpetrators of a small fraction of something could be considered a major perpetrator. Are you suggesting most? 40%? 30%? 20%? 10%?

I wouldn't hold you to an exact percentage, because I recognize that any such number is impossible to justify - I just need to get an idea. One way to illustrate "how major" you think the US is in terms of its terrorist acts would be to suggest some comparisons. Who else is as major (roughly) a terrorist state as the US?

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Re: American Drone Attack in Pakistan Kills German

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Thu Dec 09, 2010 4:06 pm

Don't try to sort C.E.S. It will change every time you call him on something.
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Re: American Drone Attack in Pakistan Kills German

Post by sandinista » Thu Dec 09, 2010 7:22 pm

Gawdzilla wrote:Don't try to sort C.E.S. It will change every time you call him on something.
quit your crying :cry:
Coito ergo sum wrote:
sandinista wrote:[

No - I have drawn no "equivalence" with anything, just stated the obvious, that the US is a major perpetrator of terror. Any "falsity" is in your minge.

:fix:
"a" major perpetrator? You said before "the biggest" perpetrator, or words to that effect.

If you are reducing your allegation to "a" major perpetrator, then I would need you to define how major it is. Even perpetrators of a small fraction of something could be considered a major perpetrator. Are you suggesting most? 40%? 30%? 20%? 10%?

I wouldn't hold you to an exact percentage, because I recognize that any such number is impossible to justify - I just need to get an idea. One way to illustrate "how major" you think the US is in terms of its terrorist acts would be to suggest some comparisons. Who else is as major (roughly) a terrorist state as the US?
:pedant: I'll ask you roughly the same question, what state has caused more violence to other nations post ww2 than the US? Your answer will, in effect, give you my answer. Meaning...you can do this yourself.
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