Palestine v Israel.

[Brian Peacock]

They'll get nearer the accurate figures after the clowns and goons have stopped killing each other and bystanders - later on. Why worry, it's their major pass time in that part of the world. Good at blood feuds and kicking off like a looney bin on scooby snacks...it's what they do when not Godbothering the world with a higher morality presented by the schizoid God of three religions.

Well I don't disagree that religion and religious identity is a significant factor here, but all you're suggesting is that because the conflict has a religious dimension then there's simply nothing to be done, so we'll just let the IDF continue to prosecute their 'war' on an unarmed civilian population and count the number of dead and orphaned children later. That requires quite a high level of emotional detachment eh?

[aufbahrung]

Cambodia didn't end by armed intervention, not before the killing was done anyway...same everywhere, even domestics - nobody intervenes until the hindsight cops arrive...

[aufbahrung]

Definitely too sensitive. People die without justice or dignity all the time. Neither side of the conflict is right to be killing the other, but when as that ever stopped a war. These things have their own travel as I say. Any damn fool can start, takes a cast of thousands to stop the slaughter. Did anyone report the horrors of the Congo war, the ongoing inhumanity in the poorer parts of the third world at the time. Who'd never be able to find the cash to fire thousands of missiles let alone the target to fire at...thought not, go where the money flows...TV cameras.

[Sean Hayden]

Maybe. But it’s not much of a leap to assume external pressure can shorten the duration of conflict.

[Strontium Dog]

Oh, I'm not looking for the absolute number down to the last corpse or body part. Just SD's ball-park figure from reliable sources. You'll note I said circa this many children dead or orphaned - perhaps the figures are out by 1,000 or 2,000 or whatever. Perhaps the IDF have only killed and orphaned half that amount of children - 5,000 dead and 8,500 orphaned? If SD is so sure the numbers are wrong he'll no doubt swing straight in to help us firm up the actual death toll eh? Or perhaps he's just drive-by trolling?

Even if Hamas's numbers are in the ballpark of correct, the main issue with them is the lack of context.

A 15 year old setting an IED is a child. A 16-year-old with an RPG is a child. A 17-year-old with an AK47 is a child.

Why don't you or anyone else understand that when half your sodding armed forces are made up of minors, then there will inevitably be a significant number of them killed?

This is what is missing from the blood libel "Israel is murdering children". The actual context that many of the so-called children killed are combatants.

There's a real scandal here, and it's Hamas training child soldiers. Not Jews defending themselves against said soldiers.

[Brian Peacock]

Oh, I'm not looking for the absolute number down to the last corpse or body part. Just SD's ball-park figure from reliable sources. You'll note I said circa this many children dead or orphaned - perhaps the figures are out by 1,000 or 2,000 or whatever. Perhaps the IDF have only killed and orphaned half that amount of children - 5,000 dead and 8,500 orphaned? If SD is so sure the numbers are wrong he'll no doubt swing straight in to help us firm up the actual death toll eh? Or perhaps he's just drive-by trolling?

Even if Hamas's numbers are in the ballpark of correct, the main issue with them is the lack of context.

A 15 year old setting an IED is a child. A 16-year-old with an RPG is a child. A 17-year-old with an AK47 is a child.

Why don't you or anyone else understand that when half your sodding armed forces are made up of minors, then there will inevitably be a significant number of them killed?

This is what is missing from the blood libel "Israel is murdering children". The actual context that many of the so-called children killed are combatants.

There's a real scandal here, and it's Hamas training child soldiers. Not Jews defending themselves against said soldiers.

OK. So some the c.10,000 children dead are child combatants now, and presumably some of the c.17,000 orphaned or separated from their families are the children of combatants. Does that mean the IDF have only killed, say, 5,000 innocent children or orphaned, say, 8,500 children in error? So we've heard your qualification, but how are you quantifying that assertion SD?

I suspect that believing killing children is wrong is only a so-called "blood-libel" to those who seek to justify it.

[aufbahrung]

Probably mass sterilization via the food aid rations would help in the longer term?

[rainbow]

Probably mass sterilization via the food aid rations would help in the longer term?

too late in your case

[aufbahrung]

Probably mass sterilization via the food aid rations would help in the longer term?

too late in your case

I try to breed for intelligence not mid-wittery these days - having had thousands of years of practice, doubt the middle east is gonna change its proven formula of world attention seeking.

[Brian Peacock]

You'll be saying they're just as bad as Africa and Asia next.

[Strontium Dog]

OK. So some the c.10,000 children dead are child combatants now, and presumably some of the c.17,000 orphaned or separated from their families are the children of combatants. Does that mean the IDF have only killed, say, 5,000 innocent children or orphaned, say, 8,500 children in error? So we've heard your qualification, but how are you quantifying that assertion SD?

I suspect that believing killing children is wrong is only a so-called "blood-libel" to those who seek to justify it.

It's indisputable that a significant proportion of any apparently deceased minors will have been combatants, so much so that one should question the motives of anyone not mentioning it.

You would have to have been living under a rock not to be aware that Hamas indoctrinates children from a very young age to murder Jews. You would have to have been living under a rock not to know that it operates terror training camps for minors. Half the population of Gaza is 18 or under, as if a people with no morals and no scruples is going to ignore that kind of human resource.

I don't much care what age a Hamas terrorist is. There aren't any birth certificates on the battlefield.

[pErvinalia]

OK. So some the c.10,000 children dead are child combatants now, and presumably some of the c.17,000 orphaned or separated from their families are the children of combatants. Does that mean the IDF have only killed, say, 5,000 innocent children or orphaned, say, 8,500 children in error? So we've heard your qualification, but how are you quantifying that assertion SD?

I suspect that believing killing children is wrong is only a so-called "blood-libel" to those who seek to justify it.

It's indisputable that a significant proportion of any apparently deceased minors will have been combatants

It's also indisputable that a significant proportion of the dead minors are not combatants. Anyone not acknowledging this is likely a supporter of state sanctioned terrorism.

[JimC]

Deep down, the supporters of current Israeli military actions in Gaza are saying that the Hamas incursion was so horrific that any and all military measures to punish Hamas are justified, no matter what damage is caused to civilians in the process.

[pErvinalia]

Some of them actually want to punish civilians. The Israeli state has become what they hate most - Nazis.

[JimC]

Some of them actually want to punish civilians. The Israeli state has become what they hate most - Nazis.

I would hope that is a small minority of Israelis, but the majority are saying basically that the civilian deaths are an unfortunate side consequence of Hamas being buried within Gaza so that destroying them cannot help but kill civilians...

At the same time I think that some on the left are downplaying the initial Hamas atrocity, almost to the point of saying that it was justified by Israel's past actions...