US Election 2020

[JimC]

Seabass wrote:

"Capitalist" is just a mask that the conservatives wear. It's nonsense. Poll after poll after poll shows that a majority of Americans support single payer healthcare, shifting from fossil to clean energy, etc, and yet most whites keep voting Republican. That's because none of this has anything to do with capitalism. It's a ruse.

You are only referring to "Capitalism" as some shifty political game. Sure, conservatives will spin it in a particular way to make electoral gains, but it also needs to be seen as a deep structure within your society that is virtually automatically supported, one way or another, by all sides in the political game. Republicans will support it totally, warts and all, because corporate power tells them to. Democrats may aim to ameliorate its harsher effects on society, as well as maintaining other progressive social agendas. Those with money and power hate any attempt to reduce their bottom line, but they would live with Democrat rule if they have to - they will still retain the majority of their wealth and influence.

So, Republicans are tapping into a vein of fear and racism - agreed. They need to be voted out. Agreed.

But after that, some deep sickness, stubborn to heal, will still remain...

[JimC]

You're asking me what makes one better than the other. Nothing, it is what it is.

I get that you are thoroughly disenchanted with politicians in general, and have some libertarian views about the potential over-reach of government into private lives. But you simply can't equate the two parties in a reverse-Trumpian fashion - "there are equally bad people on each side".

If only that, as an atheist, you must see the conservative evangelical agenda lurking behind much of Republican ideology, something that is not a major part of Democrat culture...

[Seabass]

You're asking me what makes one better than the other. Nothing, it is what it is.

Oh, sorry. I thought you supported the EC and the apportionment of senators because you said here that you support them:

viewtopic.php?p=1878142#p1878142

[pErvinalia]

I suspect Brian would see this as only patching bandaids over the fundamental driver of social inequality, capitalism itself.

That's because Brian is a raving Marxist.

[Scot Dutchy]

Revealed: Trump-linked consultant tied to Facebook pages warning election will cause civil war

Network run by fake news-publishing father and son spreads word to Trump supporters they should prepare for violence in November

A militia-promoting father and son duo of fake news publishers and a Trump-connected social media consultant are linked to pages which promote the idea of an American civil war with material presented in a way that appears to be an effort to sidestep Facebook’s fact-checking system.

Comments on their Facebook pages and other materials obtained by the Guardian show that some rank and file Donald Trump supporters are enthusiastically receiving the message that they should prepare for violence against their perceived political enemies in November.

The network is comprised of websites owned and operated by Dino Porrazzo Sr and Dino Porrazzo Jr, whose company, AFF Media, is headquartered in Pinon Hills in California. The pair have been running rightwing websites since at latest 2013, according to DNS website records.

[Tero]

[Sean Hayden]

Revealed: Trump-linked consultant tied to Facebook pages warning election will cause civil war

Network run by fake news-publishing father and son spreads word to Trump supporters they should prepare for violence in November

A militia-promoting father and son duo of fake news publishers and a Trump-connected social media consultant are linked to pages which promote the idea of an American civil war with material presented in a way that appears to be an effort to sidestep Facebook’s fact-checking system.

Comments on their Facebook pages and other materials obtained by the Guardian show that some rank and file Donald Trump supporters are enthusiastically receiving the message that they should prepare for violence against their perceived political enemies in November.

The network is comprised of websites owned and operated by Dino Porrazzo Sr and Dino Porrazzo Jr, whose company, AFF Media, is headquartered in Pinon Hills in California. The pair have been running rightwing websites since at latest 2013, according to DNS website records.

We'd have to go without Mc Donald's long enough to fight a war. --not going to happen--

The cheeseburger ceasefire of 2021?

[JimC]

If Trump loses, I would not expect a full-blown civil war, but I would expect a real increase in violence and shootings, mainly by right-wing nutters...

[Sean Hayden]

With a different President we will improve efforts to prosecute the little shits. If anything, it'll be like throwing a light on'em

[JimC]

Hopefully...

[Sean Hayden]

We're already set to free up room in our jails here. There's no good reason not to fill them up with real threats now.

[Brian Peacock]

Policy platforms of two main parties:

Republicans: more and harder capitalism.
Democrats: more and better capitalism.

Try to imagine how German Jews circa 1920s-1930s must have felt hearing white people tell them that the Nazis and the Social Democrats were the same. Imagine how infuriated and bewildered and heartbroken they must have felt seeing what was developing in front of them, and then hearing bothsidesing even from people who were ostensibly on their side.

Here's the thing, Brian. The Republicans give fuck all about capitalism. If they did, they wouldn't have chosen Trump. Trump the "tarif man". Trump the picker of "winners and losers". They love him because they want a fucking white, Christian theocracy. They want to ban abortion, ffs. They want to ban Muslims and get rid of Mexicans. An actual, vicious white supremacist is running our immigration policy, and 90% of Republicans are loving it. The capitalism fundamentalism is just an excuse they've developed over recent decades to patina over the real motivator, which is racism.

Lee Atwater:

Atwater: As to the whole Southern strategy that Harry Dent and others put together in 1968, opposition to the Voting Rights Act would have been a central part of keeping the South. Now [Reagan] doesn't have to do that. All you have to do to keep the South is for Reagan to run in place on the issues he's campaigned on since 1964 [...] and that's fiscal conservatism, balancing the budget, cut taxes, you know, the whole cluster...

Questioner: But the fact is, isn't it, that Reagan does get to the Wallace voter and to the racist side of the Wallace voter by doing away with legal services, by cutting down on food stamps?

Atwater: Y'all don't quote me on this. You start out in 1954 by saying, "Nigger, nigger, nigger." By 1968 you can't say "nigger"—that hurts you. Backfires. So you say stuff like forced busing, states' rights and all that stuff. You're getting so abstract now [that] you're talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you're talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is [that] blacks get hurt worse than whites. And subconsciously maybe that is part of it. I'm not saying that. But I'm saying that if it is getting that abstract, and that coded, that we are doing away with the racial problem one way or the other. You follow me—because obviously sitting around saying, "We want to cut this," is much more abstract than even the busing thing, and a hell of a lot more abstract than "Nigger, nigger."

The modern Republican party is just the old Dixiecrat party dressed up in nicer clothes. The history of America is in large part centuries of white people owning black people followed by centuries of white people refusing the share with black and brown people. Refusing to share their neighborhoods, their wealth and popularity from stolen music, refusing to share bathrooms, restaurants, the economy, schools, etc, basically the whole damn country.

The devotion to capitalism is just window dressing. The real desire is a stratified society with white Christians at the top. Because in their minds, what makes a developed country developed isn't smart economic and social policies, quality education and all that evil liberal stuff, but whiteness and Christianness.

And what of the Democrats? How about Bernie Sanders? Does he want "more and better capitalism"? How about Pramila Jayapal? Does she want "more and better capitalism"? Do you know who she is? How about Mark Pocan? Does he want more and better capitalism? Do you know who he is? How about Barbara Lee? Ro Khanna? Katie Porter? Ilhan Omar? Adam Schiff? Jay Inslee? Ed Markey? Sheldon Whitehouse? Do you know who many of these people are? Do they want more and better capitalism? Do they want to turn the US into a white ethnostate? Do they want to turn the US into a Christian theocracy? Sure, there are shitty Democrats, but there are plenty of good ones too, and even the shitty ones aren't as bad the Republicans.

Reducing the two parties down to harder capitalism vs better capitalism is ridiculous because this has never really been about capitalism.

You're always riding my ass regarding my unhelpful rhetoric regarding Trump supporters, but how does refusing to take sides help? How does lumping Ilhan Omar in with Louie Gohmert help? How is that productive? Who are you going to convert/convince/win over with that approach?

Here's what I think, Brian. I think you have sort of a typical British/European shallow and grossly oversimplified view of US politics, and this makes it easy to stick to your bothsides dogma. But it's lazy, isn't. Not only that, it's also craven and destructive. When one side gets THIS bad—as bad as the modern Republican party, or the fascists of Germany and Italy—bothsidesing only helps the assholes. This is one of the biggest if not THE biggest problem with the mainstream media in the US—they're all about the horse race and the conflict—they'll have some climate denying right-wing jackass on to "debate" with an actually scientist, and present both sides as if they have equal merit. It's fucked up. It ruins the discourse, it makes people stupid, and it puts people off politics. How is your bothsidesing any better than the media's?

Not all Americans are as bad as Republicans, just as not all Germans were as bad as Nazis. Now, if you want to do anti-Americanism on the internet and write us all off as stupid and greedy lump all of us in with Louie Gohmert and Devin Nunes, fine, but at least have to courtesy to know your shit. Let's have some specifics. If you have a problem with Pramila Jayapal or Barbara Lee, let's hear it.

Steady on there Seabass. I didn't say that the parties were the same, just that they are both rampant capitalists whose political and personal interests lie in shoring up that system. Why do you find that so triggering? If I had a stake in the election I'd be voting Democrat, but that doesn't mean that I sign up to their grand vision of some kind of socially-responsible version of capitalism. One cannot be socially progressive and economically conservative - which is essentially the Democrat position is it not? - because social policy and economic policy are inextricably intertwined: social policy is economic policy.

[Brian Peacock]

I suspect Brian would see this as only patching bandaids over the fundamental driver of social inequality, capitalism itself.

That's because Brian is a raving Marxist.

My raving days are over.

[Tero]

Another scenario:
Biden wins with about 300 electoral college votes
https://www.electoral-vote.com/
Trump croaks before Jan due to covid complications and a stumble down White House steps

[Seabass]

Policy platforms of two main parties:

Republicans: more and harder capitalism.
Democrats: more and better capitalism.

Try to imagine how German Jews circa 1920s-1930s must have felt hearing white people tell them that the Nazis and the Social Democrats were the same. Imagine how infuriated and bewildered and heartbroken they must have felt seeing what was developing in front of them, and then hearing bothsidesing even from people who were ostensibly on their side.

Here's the thing, Brian. The Republicans give fuck all about capitalism. If they did, they wouldn't have chosen Trump. Trump the "tarif man". Trump the picker of "winners and losers". They love him because they want a fucking white, Christian theocracy. They want to ban abortion, ffs. They want to ban Muslims and get rid of Mexicans. An actual, vicious white supremacist is running our immigration policy, and 90% of Republicans are loving it. The capitalism fundamentalism is just an excuse they've developed over recent decades to patina over the real motivator, which is racism.

Lee Atwater:

Atwater: As to the whole Southern strategy that Harry Dent and others put together in 1968, opposition to the Voting Rights Act would have been a central part of keeping the South. Now [Reagan] doesn't have to do that. All you have to do to keep the South is for Reagan to run in place on the issues he's campaigned on since 1964 [...] and that's fiscal conservatism, balancing the budget, cut taxes, you know, the whole cluster...

Questioner: But the fact is, isn't it, that Reagan does get to the Wallace voter and to the racist side of the Wallace voter by doing away with legal services, by cutting down on food stamps?

Atwater: Y'all don't quote me on this. You start out in 1954 by saying, "Nigger, nigger, nigger." By 1968 you can't say "nigger"—that hurts you. Backfires. So you say stuff like forced busing, states' rights and all that stuff. You're getting so abstract now [that] you're talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you're talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is [that] blacks get hurt worse than whites. And subconsciously maybe that is part of it. I'm not saying that. But I'm saying that if it is getting that abstract, and that coded, that we are doing away with the racial problem one way or the other. You follow me—because obviously sitting around saying, "We want to cut this," is much more abstract than even the busing thing, and a hell of a lot more abstract than "Nigger, nigger."

The modern Republican party is just the old Dixiecrat party dressed up in nicer clothes. The history of America is in large part centuries of white people owning black people followed by centuries of white people refusing the share with black and brown people. Refusing to share their neighborhoods, their wealth and popularity from stolen music, refusing to share bathrooms, restaurants, the economy, schools, etc, basically the whole damn country.

The devotion to capitalism is just window dressing. The real desire is a stratified society with white Christians at the top. Because in their minds, what makes a developed country developed isn't smart economic and social policies, quality education and all that evil liberal stuff, but whiteness and Christianness.

And what of the Democrats? How about Bernie Sanders? Does he want "more and better capitalism"? How about Pramila Jayapal? Does she want "more and better capitalism"? Do you know who she is? How about Mark Pocan? Does he want more and better capitalism? Do you know who he is? How about Barbara Lee? Ro Khanna? Katie Porter? Ilhan Omar? Adam Schiff? Jay Inslee? Ed Markey? Sheldon Whitehouse? Do you know who many of these people are? Do they want more and better capitalism? Do they want to turn the US into a white ethnostate? Do they want to turn the US into a Christian theocracy? Sure, there are shitty Democrats, but there are plenty of good ones too, and even the shitty ones aren't as bad the Republicans.

Reducing the two parties down to harder capitalism vs better capitalism is ridiculous because this has never really been about capitalism.

You're always riding my ass regarding my unhelpful rhetoric regarding Trump supporters, but how does refusing to take sides help? How does lumping Ilhan Omar in with Louie Gohmert help? How is that productive? Who are you going to convert/convince/win over with that approach?

Here's what I think, Brian. I think you have sort of a typical British/European shallow and grossly oversimplified view of US politics, and this makes it easy to stick to your bothsides dogma. But it's lazy, isn't. Not only that, it's also craven and destructive. When one side gets THIS bad—as bad as the modern Republican party, or the fascists of Germany and Italy—bothsidesing only helps the assholes. This is one of the biggest if not THE biggest problem with the mainstream media in the US—they're all about the horse race and the conflict—they'll have some climate denying right-wing jackass on to "debate" with an actually scientist, and present both sides as if they have equal merit. It's fucked up. It ruins the discourse, it makes people stupid, and it puts people off politics. How is your bothsidesing any better than the media's?

Not all Americans are as bad as Republicans, just as not all Germans were as bad as Nazis. Now, if you want to do anti-Americanism on the internet and write us all off as stupid and greedy lump all of us in with Louie Gohmert and Devin Nunes, fine, but at least have to courtesy to know your shit. Let's have some specifics. If you have a problem with Pramila Jayapal or Barbara Lee, let's hear it.

Steady on there Seabass. I didn't say that the parties were the same, just that they are both rampant capitalists whose political and personal interests lie in shoring up that system. Why do you find that so triggering? If I had a stake in the election I'd be voting Democrat, but that doesn't mean that I sign up to their grand vision of some kind of socially-responsible version of capitalism. One cannot be socially progressive and economically conservative - which is essentially the Democrat position is it not? - because social policy and economic policy are inextricably intertwined: social policy is economic policy.

Lol. No, Brian, what triggers me is when white guys tell me I should be nicer to white nationalists. What triggers me is when white dudes tell me that a political organization that wants to eliminate people who look like me and another political organization that accepts people who look like me are basically the same. What triggers me is when white people tell me that I'm the one doing the dehumanizing when I say mean things about people who don't think folks who look like me are "real Americans".

While we're discussing triggering, why does it trigger you when I say nasty things about Trumpists? These are people who think that in order for America to be made great again, it has to be made white and Christian, because non-whites and non-christians can only ever be moochers. Or to put another way, in order to restore health to the volkskörper, the parasites and impurities must be eliminated. But somehow, I'm the bad guy for calling them "Trumpzis"...