eRvin wrote:Forty Two wrote:eRvin wrote:Forty Two wrote:eRvin wrote:I think you live in a totally different world to the rest of us here.
LOL -- stop pretending you fit in with "the rest of us here" - you're a fucking whackjob.
Take yer pills...
Just stop it with this constant "rest of us" nonsense.
eRvin wrote:
eRvin wrote:
It's perfectly normal for the bill to be split (either evenly, or by cost). No one thinks anything weird about it. As Rachel said, if someone has a problem with that, then they are probably a bit deficient in character.
The data says otherwise.
http://www.eharmony.com/dating-advice/d ... good-idea/
.... “How long do men generally pay for dates if the relationship continues?” The responses varied on this question but the most common response was that men paid for dates for about 2-3 months before the bills were more evenly if not equally split. A few had relationships where men paid for almost all of the dates.
http://www.thedatingtruth.com/2011/02/dont-be-a-fool/
I'm talking about among the feminist/progressives that Rachel and I hang out with. That's why I distinguished our world from yours. Why is it so hard for you to follow the simple flow of a thread?
Well, it seems that if you and your group are not in accord with the data, then it's you that live in the anomaly. How can I know what you and your friends think, except when you tell me? That's why we look to more objective data, like in the links I've posted.
None of your links deal with feminism.
Have you forgotten what your thread is supposed to be about?
Yes, did you forget to read the link where even those folks who identified as progressives and feminists were in the "men pay" camp?
eRvin wrote:
eRvin wrote:
Again, what's that got to do with feminism?
Because many feminists claim that feminism is, in part, about social and cultural equality of the sexes. So, when people say some iteration of "I'm a feminist, but I think the man should pay on dates..." there is an incongruity. And, so the thread is, in part, an examination of feminist perspectives on dating (with specific reference to the social/cultural norm that places a higher burden on men to pick up checks).
You haven't posted a single piece of evidence about feminism.
That's why I keep asking you what your links have to do with feminism.
That isn't true, at least one of my links included people identifying as feminists and progressive. Similarly, one of the videos was of a feminist ranting about men needing to step up and pay.
https://www.bostonglobe.com/magazine/20 ... story.html
A LearnVest survey in 2013 found that a majority of men, and an even larger majority of women, thought the man should pay on a first date. Last November, after surveying some 17,000 heterosexual unmarried individuals from ages 18 to 65, Janet Lever of California State University, Los Angeles, and two colleagues reported that men typically still pay for most of a couple’s expenses, even after they’ve been dating for a while.
So, if this is typical, and a "larger majority of women" think men should pay, then those that believe in equality on this issue are in a small minority. If that's where the feminists are, then feminism must be in that small minority (unless they are feminists who believe men should do more of the paying).
“There is something viscerally unappealing about a guy who doesn’t pick up the whole check on a first date,” a female management consultant recently told me.
the woman may offer to pay for her own meal, but that offer can be disingenuous: Often, she expects him to decline. If he takes her at her word, he’s failed the test.
if her credit card is extended in good faith, that doesn’t necessarily mean she regards the idea of his paying for her as a distasteful throwback to a less enlightened age. Rather, it may communicate her lack of interest in him.
as a woman explained to me, “If I let you pay for dinner, it means you have a chance for another date.” She’ll allow me to pursue her again, and that permission comes at a price.
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Can you be a feminist and still expect the man to pay?
http://www.bustle.com/articles/22935-ca ... uys-to-pay
I am a feminist. I strongly believe in the social, political, legal, and economic equality of men and women.
Yet, on a first date, I expect the guy to pay for me.
So.... social equality, except when it comes to social norms regarding paying for things...
Of course, at the end of dinner or drinks, I'll make a very convincing slow-motion gesture towards my wallet, which gets progressively slower until he tells me that he's got the bill. I've watched myself do this and wondered — Is this lame charade at odds with feminism? Does this desire undo my other feminist behavior? Do other feminists feel this way?
I've seen a lot of dates do this over the years... the slow fumble for the purse.... always irked me in a minor way. Not that I ever let a woman know it irked me. I always played the part, and dutifully paid for her food and drinks. As a younger guy, I spent gobs of money on dates like that. It took me a loooong time to learn the lesson that dates don't need to cost money, and that spending excessive amounts of money too soon in a relationship can backfire. I eventually learned that having something fun to do was better than expensive dinners.
Alas, the lame charade, as she calls it, is at odds with feminism. The desire doesn't "undo" your feminist behavior, but it does reveal that the notion in feminism that men and women have to be 50-50 on everything is not necessary, and that such sex distinctions may well be reasonable in other contexts.
I found this bit interesting, in light of the "offer" tangent --
Conversely, if I were to ask a guy out to a nice dinner or for drinks, I would offer to pay for us both, because I invited him and initiated the event that necessitated the spending of money.
Wait -- wait - she's writing an article here and has had time to think this through. And, she worded it this way. if she were to ask a guy out to a nice dinner or for drinks, I would OFFER to pay for us both. Who is she making the "offer" to? Him? Is that what men do when they invite women on dates? Do men make an "offer" to the woman to pick up the tab? No. The pick up the tab, because that's expected. She might "offer" to pay some of the bill, but the man is not making any offers to anyone.
When an offer is made in this context, it's really now a question of etiquette. What do you do in a social context when someone "offers" to pay for something. "Oh, I'm sorry, I spilled wine on your shirt -- can I pay for the dry cleaning?" The answer, of course, is "no, don't be silly, it was an accident." That's why when women "offer" to pay the gratuity or half the bill, the man is under social pressure to decline. It's the kind of polite "offer" that is almost rude to accept, which is why many women find it off-putting for a man to accept that offer. It's expected to be declined.
So, when she asks a guy to dinner or drinks, and then she just "offers" to pay the bill -- she'll see the bill come and she'll ask him, "may I get the bill?" What's he going to say? Yes? The polite response is - no ,don't be silly. If she means to pay the bill, you gird your ovaries and reach onto the table and take the check, and then when he says, "no no, let me get the bill..." you decline his offer to do so.
Perhaps the real feminist problem here is that I pretty much never ask guys out, because I largely abide by the societal norm that men do the asking out and women do the accepting. Thanks for that, society.
Notice another interesting choice of words. She thanks "society," but it's not the patriarchy.
And, then there is this doozy --
Plus, if you think about all the stupid shit we spend money on to make ourselves more attractive to men (hair removal, highlights, clothing, etc.) letting the guy pick up the first few dates is no big deal.”
LOL - right, so, what about all the women who say they aren't dressing certain ways or doing makeup certain ways for men? This woman says "we" spend more money to make ourselves more attractive to men. Weird. They say that they spend money on stupid shit, but the men should compensate for that spending on stupid shit by buying dinners and drinks and such. Note - this is a conversation between avowed feminists, one of which is a writer on feminist topics. Yet, one of the things she thought to put in an article was an assertion that it's men's responsibility that women wear makeup, get highlights, and buy tons of shoes.
I like when a guy pays for dinner...and I also like it when a friend treats me to drinks or a boss buys my latte. I like to think that if I were the one making more cash, I'd happily reciprocate — in dating, in friendship, and in the workplace. Perhaps rather than gender, what matters here is who is more comfortable financially. “And unfortunately, in the world in which we happen to find ourselves,” another friend said to me, “the man is usually making more money.”
And, this is the last bit. I don't understand this way of thinking. "..what matters here is who is the most comfortable financially..." and she refers to friends treating, bosses treating, as well as romantic suiters treating. Really? If you go for coffee with a rich friend, what matters is who is most comfortable financially? The rich person should pay for the coffee, drinks or dinner? Bollocks. I find that attitude rather alien. Even in my "don't have a pot to piss in" days, I never expected other people to pay for me just because they had money. It didn't matter AT ALL who is the most comfortable financially. I had rich friends and struggling friends (like me). Just because the rich friends had money, it didn't mean they got more rounds of beer than anyone else, or picked up everybody's check at dinner.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar
