Another shot at the case against gnus

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Re: There is no case against guns--Case dismissed with preju

Post by Hermit » Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:10 am

Gallstones wrote:Detroit police chief gives credit to armed citizens for drop in crime July 16, 2014
Detroit has experienced 37 percent fewer robberies in 2014 than during the same period last year, 22 percent fewer break-ins of businesses and homes, and 30 percent fewer carjackings. Craig attributed the drop to better police work and criminals being reluctant to prey on citizens who may be carrying guns.

“Criminals are getting the message that good Detroiters are armed and will use that weapon,” said Craig, who has repeatedly said he believes armed citizens deter crime. “I don’t want to take away from the good work our investigators are doing, but I think part of the drop in crime, and robberies in particular, is because criminals are thinking twice that citizens could be armed.

“I can’t say what specific percentage is caused by this, but there’s no question in my mind it has had an effect,” Craig said.

Craig made national news in January, when he told The Detroit News he believed armed citizens deter crime — an unusual stance for an urban police chief. In May, the chief was featured in an NRA publication, America’s 1st Freedom, in a cover story titled “A Show of Courage in Detroit,” in which Craig reiterated his support for citizens using guns to protect themselves.
Let's see now. Policeman believes armed citizens deter crime. There is a drop in crime. He concludes that the drop in crime is due to deterrence by armed citizens. Sure. Obvious, even. No circularity in this. None at all.
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Re: There is no case against guns--Case dismissed with preju

Post by JimC » Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:16 am

Hermit wrote:
Gallstones wrote:Detroit police chief gives credit to armed citizens for drop in crime July 16, 2014
Detroit has experienced 37 percent fewer robberies in 2014 than during the same period last year, 22 percent fewer break-ins of businesses and homes, and 30 percent fewer carjackings. Craig attributed the drop to better police work and criminals being reluctant to prey on citizens who may be carrying guns.

“Criminals are getting the message that good Detroiters are armed and will use that weapon,” said Craig, who has repeatedly said he believes armed citizens deter crime. “I don’t want to take away from the good work our investigators are doing, but I think part of the drop in crime, and robberies in particular, is because criminals are thinking twice that citizens could be armed.

“I can’t say what specific percentage is caused by this, but there’s no question in my mind it has had an effect,” Craig said.

Craig made national news in January, when he told The Detroit News he believed armed citizens deter crime — an unusual stance for an urban police chief. In May, the chief was featured in an NRA publication, America’s 1st Freedom, in a cover story titled “A Show of Courage in Detroit,” in which Craig reiterated his support for citizens using guns to protect themselves.
Let's see now. Policeman believes armed citizens deter crime. There is a drop in crime. He concludes that the drop in crime is due to deterrence by armed citizens. Sure. Obvious, even. No circularity in this. None at all.
He should have at least given some statistics about any rise in numbers of armed civilians during the same period, and possibly statistics police may collect on the numbers of times that attempted crimes are thwarted by armed civilians. It's even possible that his hypothesis could be supported by such information, but I agree with Hermit - as it stands, it is no more than a hunch based on personal prejudice...

Much like all of Seth's posts on guns, actually...
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Re: There is no case against guns--Case dismissed with preju

Post by Gallstones » Thu Jul 17, 2014 5:42 am

JimC wrote:
Hermit wrote:
Gallstones wrote:Detroit police chief gives credit to armed citizens for drop in crime July 16, 2014
Detroit has experienced 37 percent fewer robberies in 2014 than during the same period last year, 22 percent fewer break-ins of businesses and homes, and 30 percent fewer carjackings. Craig attributed the drop to better police work and criminals being reluctant to prey on citizens who may be carrying guns.

“Criminals are getting the message that good Detroiters are armed and will use that weapon,” said Craig, who has repeatedly said he believes armed citizens deter crime. “I don’t want to take away from the good work our investigators are doing, but I think part of the drop in crime, and robberies in particular, is because criminals are thinking twice that citizens could be armed.

“I can’t say what specific percentage is caused by this, but there’s no question in my mind it has had an effect,” Craig said.

Craig made national news in January, when he told The Detroit News he believed armed citizens deter crime — an unusual stance for an urban police chief. In May, the chief was featured in an NRA publication, America’s 1st Freedom, in a cover story titled “A Show of Courage in Detroit,” in which Craig reiterated his support for citizens using guns to protect themselves.
Let's see now. Policeman believes armed citizens deter crime. There is a drop in crime. He concludes that the drop in crime is due to deterrence by armed citizens. Sure. Obvious, even. No circularity in this. None at all.
He should have at least given some statistics about any rise in numbers of armed civilians during the same period, and possibly statistics police may collect on the numbers of times that attempted crimes are thwarted by armed civilians. It's even possible that his hypothesis could be supported by such information, but I agree with Hermit - as it stands, it is no more than a hunch based on personal prejudice...

Much like all of Seth's posts on guns, actually...
From the link:
Detroit has experienced 37 percent fewer robberies in 2014 than during the same period last year, 22 percent fewer break-ins of businesses and homes, and 30 percent fewer carjackings. Craig attributed the drop to better police work and criminals being reluctant to prey on citizens who may be carrying guns.
A person could have read it, it isn't that long.
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The Second Amendment forms a fourth branch of government (an armed citizenry) in case the government goes mad. ~Larry Nutter

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Re: There is no case against guns--Case dismissed with preju

Post by Hermit » Thu Jul 17, 2014 6:05 am

Gallstones wrote:
JimC wrote:
Hermit wrote:
Gallstones wrote:Detroit police chief gives credit to armed citizens for drop in crime July 16, 2014
Detroit has experienced 37 percent fewer robberies in 2014 than during the same period last year, 22 percent fewer break-ins of businesses and homes, and 30 percent fewer carjackings. Craig attributed the drop to better police work and criminals being reluctant to prey on citizens who may be carrying guns.

“Criminals are getting the message that good Detroiters are armed and will use that weapon,” said Craig, who has repeatedly said he believes armed citizens deter crime. “I don’t want to take away from the good work our investigators are doing, but I think part of the drop in crime, and robberies in particular, is because criminals are thinking twice that citizens could be armed.

“I can’t say what specific percentage is caused by this, but there’s no question in my mind it has had an effect,” Craig said.

Craig made national news in January, when he told The Detroit News he believed armed citizens deter crime — an unusual stance for an urban police chief. In May, the chief was featured in an NRA publication, America’s 1st Freedom, in a cover story titled “A Show of Courage in Detroit,” in which Craig reiterated his support for citizens using guns to protect themselves.
Let's see now. Policeman believes armed citizens deter crime. There is a drop in crime. He concludes that the drop in crime is due to deterrence by armed citizens. Sure. Obvious, even. No circularity in this. None at all.
He should have at least given some statistics about any rise in numbers of armed civilians during the same period, and possibly statistics police may collect on the numbers of times that attempted crimes are thwarted by armed civilians. It's even possible that his hypothesis could be supported by such information, but I agree with Hermit - as it stands, it is no more than a hunch based on personal prejudice...

Much like all of Seth's posts on guns, actually...
From the link:
Detroit has experienced 37 percent fewer robberies in 2014 than during the same period last year, 22 percent fewer break-ins of businesses and homes, and 30 percent fewer carjackings. Craig attributed the drop to better police work and criminals being reluctant to prey on citizens who may be carrying guns.
A person could have read it, it isn't that long.
The drop in crime is a given, and we've read it, Gallstones. You seem to have not read the bit past JimC's "He should have at least given some statistics". Try it. It isn't that long.
I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops. - Stephen J. Gould

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There is no case against guns--Case dismissed with prejudice

Post by Gallstones » Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:16 am

Statistics were given.
They were in the article.
He is Chief of Police--I think he's better placed than you to determine what is what.
But here’s the thing about rights. They’re not actually supposed to be voted on. That’s why they’re called rights. ~Rachel Maddow August 2010

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There is no case against guns--Case dismissed with prejudice

Post by Gallstones » Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:22 am

Cop Shoots Cop in [Domestic] Dispute
The Lee County Sheriff's Office is continuing its investigation into what the office described as a domestic situation that resulted in the shooting of Young and Luis "Dave" Monroig, 37, at the home they shared at the Lakes of Estero development. Monroig, a 10-year veteran of the force, died of his injuries Wednesday morning.

Sheriff's units were called to the development across from Estero High School on River Run Road shortly before 1 a.m. Wednesday. They found both officers shot inside the home at 21790 Sunset Lake Court. Young, 40, is listed as owner of the home.
...
Neighbors said the two Naples police officers who lived together in the Lakes of Estero development seemed like a nice couple. They were always working around their house and were the friendly sort, often waving back when others hailed them.
But here’s the thing about rights. They’re not actually supposed to be voted on. That’s why they’re called rights. ~Rachel Maddow August 2010

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Re: There is no case against guns--Case dismissed with preju

Post by Hermit » Thu Jul 17, 2014 7:24 am

Gallstones wrote:Statistics were given.
They were in the article.
He is Chief of Police--I think he's better placed than you to determine what is what.
Statistics were acknowledged. No matter who you are, an argument starting with the belief that armed citizens deter crime and concluding that therefore a drop in crime is due to armed citizens is circular.
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Re: Another shot at the case against gnus

Post by Tero » Thu Jul 17, 2014 10:59 am

All those studies are done with confirmation bias. And it's even worse than global warming. Too many variables: unemployment, meth sales, poverty in general.

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There is no case against guns--Case dismissed with prejudice

Post by Gallstones » Fri Jul 18, 2014 1:09 am

Firearms to be auctioned by Billings police and county sheriff 07.18.14
BPD announced the auction on its Facebook page, which states the purpose of the auction is "to dispose of firearms that are no longer of evidentiary value to our agencies."

The agencies are inviting all the licensed firearm dealers in Yellowstone County to attend and bid on the firearms being sold.

The firearms will be divided into several lots, which can be viewed at http://www.billingspolice.com.

This will be a silent auction and there will be no reserve bid. The highest bidder for each lot will take the entire lot.
State law does not allow for the destruction of firearms by law enforcement agencies.

According to Montana Code 46-5-313: "Firearm not to be destroyed. If a firearm possessed by a law enforcement agency was not purchased by the agency for agency use, if it is legal for a private person to own and possess the firearm, and if the legal owner cannot be determined by the agency, the agency may not destroy the firearm and shall sell the firearm to a licensed dealer. The proceeds of the sale must be deposited in the general fund of the governmental entity of which the agency is a part."
But here’s the thing about rights. They’re not actually supposed to be voted on. That’s why they’re called rights. ~Rachel Maddow August 2010

The Second Amendment forms a fourth branch of government (an armed citizenry) in case the government goes mad. ~Larry Nutter

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Re: There is no case against guns--Case dismissed with preju

Post by JimC » Fri Jul 18, 2014 1:11 am

Gallstones wrote:Firearms to be auctioned by Billings police and county sheriff 07.18.14
BPD announced the auction on its Facebook page, which states the purpose of the auction is "to dispose of firearms that are no longer of evidentiary value to our agencies."

The agencies are inviting all the licensed firearm dealers in Yellowstone County to attend and bid on the firearms being sold.

The firearms will be divided into several lots, which can be viewed at http://www.billingspolice.com.

This will be a silent auction and there will be no reserve bid. The highest bidder for each lot will take the entire lot.
State law does not allow for the destruction of firearms by law enforcement agencies.

According to Montana Code 46-5-313: "Firearm not to be destroyed. If a firearm possessed by a law enforcement agency was not purchased by the agency for agency use, if it is legal for a private person to own and possess the firearm, and if the legal owner cannot be determined by the agency, the agency may not destroy the firearm and shall sell the firearm to a licensed dealer. The proceeds of the sale must be deposited in the general fund of the governmental entity of which the agency is a part."
Heaven forbid there be any reduction in the number of sacred guns available for worship in the US... :roll:
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Re: Another shot at the case against gnus

Post by Seth » Fri Jul 18, 2014 11:13 pm

Tero wrote:If she had to pick up a knife or a scissors, it's probably his doing. :D
Sexist pig...
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Re: There is no case against guns--Case dismissed with preju

Post by Seth » Fri Jul 18, 2014 11:21 pm

Hermit wrote:
Gallstones wrote:Statistics were given.
They were in the article.
He is Chief of Police--I think he's better placed than you to determine what is what.
Statistics were acknowledged. No matter who you are, an argument starting with the belief that armed citizens deter crime and concluding that therefore a drop in crime is due to armed citizens is circular.
Only if that's the argument, which it isn't. It's actually "a drop in crime has been observed and study indicates that an increase in armed citizens is likely to be causative." Now I agree that to properly analyze the cause/effect relationship much more data and analysis is needed, but we don't know that the Chief didn't do that research, we only know that he was giving a press conference and stating his opinion and conclusions based on his position and experience as a police officer. Now perhaps he did pull it out of his ass, but a fallacious argument from authority is only fallacious if the authority is not a recognized expert in the field. You are of course free to do your own research and debunk his claims, but your credibility is somewhat lower on the totem pole than his is, so you're going to have to show your work.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: There is no case against guns--Case dismissed with preju

Post by Seth » Fri Jul 18, 2014 11:24 pm

JimC wrote:
Gallstones wrote:Firearms to be auctioned by Billings police and county sheriff 07.18.14
BPD announced the auction on its Facebook page, which states the purpose of the auction is "to dispose of firearms that are no longer of evidentiary value to our agencies."

The agencies are inviting all the licensed firearm dealers in Yellowstone County to attend and bid on the firearms being sold.

The firearms will be divided into several lots, which can be viewed at http://www.billingspolice.com.

This will be a silent auction and there will be no reserve bid. The highest bidder for each lot will take the entire lot.
State law does not allow for the destruction of firearms by law enforcement agencies.

According to Montana Code 46-5-313: "Firearm not to be destroyed. If a firearm possessed by a law enforcement agency was not purchased by the agency for agency use, if it is legal for a private person to own and possess the firearm, and if the legal owner cannot be determined by the agency, the agency may not destroy the firearm and shall sell the firearm to a licensed dealer. The proceeds of the sale must be deposited in the general fund of the governmental entity of which the agency is a part."
Heaven forbid there be any reduction in the number of sacred guns available for worship in the US... :roll:
Heaven forbid that hoplophobe jackasses insist on destroying perfectly serviceable firearms that can be sold to reduce the burden levied on the taxpayer for law enforcement.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: Another shot at the case against gnus

Post by Gallstones » Sat Jul 19, 2014 1:03 am

Massachusetts Senate approves sweeping gun bill
May-issue gun control bill passes Mass. senate but without the may-issue part 07.18.14
After the Massachusetts state senate received a controversial gun control bill from the house with may-issue language for gun owner permits, they passed it by a vote of 28-10, but without the key measure.

The provision, which would have expanded the state’s ‘may-issue’ concealed carry policy to cover not only the carry of handguns, but also the ownership of handguns, rifles and shotguns, was stripped away during debate on the legislation. In it, local police chiefs would have had increased discretion in issuing firearms identification cards (FIDs), which are needed in the state to purchase guns.
...
While stripping away the increased powers proposed to local law enforcement chiefs, the bill includes provisions to increase the state’s submissions to the FBI’s National Instant Background Check System, which processes background checks for gun sales. In addition, it adds several new gun crime statutes to the state’s code while increasing mandated penalties for others.

Finally, the measure mandates additional school resource officers and increased mental health, suicide awareness and prevention training for educators.

State gun rights advocates were elated by the news that the increased FID scrutiny element of the senate bill was exercised from the legislation.
...
gun control advocates were less than impressed...
But here’s the thing about rights. They’re not actually supposed to be voted on. That’s why they’re called rights. ~Rachel Maddow August 2010

The Second Amendment forms a fourth branch of government (an armed citizenry) in case the government goes mad. ~Larry Nutter

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There is no case against guns--Case dismissed with prejudice

Post by Gallstones » Tue Jul 22, 2014 1:38 am

But here’s the thing about rights. They’re not actually supposed to be voted on. That’s why they’re called rights. ~Rachel Maddow August 2010

The Second Amendment forms a fourth branch of government (an armed citizenry) in case the government goes mad. ~Larry Nutter

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