NSA collecting phone records of millions of Americans daily

[Coito ergo sum]

So, we don't have to stop doing drug deals via cell phone then?

Sure, why wouldn't we? Is the only method for doing so to be listening in or recording every phone call, including those of 300,000,000 Americans who aren't even suspected of criminal activity?

When Bush was President, Obama supporters and Democrats were quite clear that warrants based on probable cause, or at least articulable reasonable suspicion was required before they could wiretap. Why is it that now, Obama supporters and Democrats are now suggesting it is no big deal that every phone in the United States is recorded or monitored? I knew that Obama supporters were willing to accept a lot of stuff that they would consider crimes under George Bush, but we have now taken a turn for the surreal here. FFS. Would you accept this shit under Bush? If you say "sure, of course" -- I can only take you at your word, but my recollection of the posting exchanges in 2008 give me a seriously strong suspicion that you'd be calling him a fascist if this sort of thing came to light at the time.

[Coito ergo sum]

Well you got 3 years to shut down NSA domestic activities. Good luck.

Whether this is all a fait accomplis or not is a different issue than whether it is objectionable. We may well be fucked.

[pErvinalia]

Well rEv, since you have no porn and no inventory of guns in your e mails that Obama stole, why worry?

I already explained why we should worry. Then you replied with a nonsensical post.

[laklak]

Sales of "1984" increased 6,021% in the 24 hours after the NSA revelations.

It's an ill wind, eh?

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/201 ... evelations

[Coito ergo sum]

Sales of "1984" increased 6,021% in the 24 hours after the NSA revelations.

It's an ill wind, eh?

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/201 ... evelations

Ban it as hate speech.

[Tero]

Well rEv, since you have no porn and no inventory of guns in your e mails that Obama stole, why worry?

I already explained why we should worry. Then you replied with a nonsensical post.

Sorry, but I just can't think of anything the average citizen would have to hide. Gay is normal, unless you are a Republican senator. All kinks are normal other than cannibalism or being a pedophile.

In this day and age only terrorists, religious fanatics with "plans" and Waco type ammunition collectors plus fertilizer buyers need to be monitored.

What have you got? Tax evasion?

[Coito ergo sum]

Well rEv, since you have no porn and no inventory of guns in your e mails that Obama stole, why worry?

I already explained why we should worry. Then you replied with a nonsensical post.

Sorry, but I just can't think of anything the average citizen would have to hide. Gay is normal, unless you are a Republican senator. All kinks are normal other than cannibalism or being a pedophile.

In this day and age only terrorists, religious fanatics with "plans" and Waco type ammunition collectors plus fertilizer buyers need to be monitored.

What have you got? Tax evasion?

Privacy is not about having something to hide. There are many people who have nothing untoward to "hide" that are mindful of their privacy. I don't say anything to my wife in bed at night that is criminal -- but, that doesn't mean I want the government recording it. And, I have many conversations on the phone involving humor that perhaps would sound uncouth or impertinent if transcribed and dryly read on the nightly news. It's not something "to hide" -- but, it is something about which most people desire privacy.

Having phone sex is not "abnormal" but it is also not something that most people would enjoy being made public. And, there are many other things just like that. the average person -- living his life of quiet desperation -- not striving for political power, keeping his head down and obeying his betters -- that guy, which is most people - the average person -- is not going to have many problems with this because nobody gives a shit enough about him to worry about exposing his dirty laundry. However, let one of these average Joes lift his head up over the trench-line and criticize the government, enter a political race, and actually challenge these powers that be to become a power that be.... you go on a list (which all politicians have) of opponents, and then they strategize (all of them do it) on how to discredit or embarrass them. That's just one example.

[pErvinalia]

Well rEv, since you have no porn and no inventory of guns in your e mails that Obama stole, why worry?

I already explained why we should worry. Then you replied with a nonsensical post.

Sorry, but I just can't think of anything the average citizen would have to hide. Gay is normal, unless you are a Republican senator. All kinks are normal other than cannibalism or being a pedophile.

In this day and age only terrorists, religious fanatics with "plans" and Waco type ammunition collectors plus fertilizer buyers need to be monitored.

What have you got? Tax evasion?

It's not about "having something to hide". It's about the principle of privacy, and what could go wrong if it is ignored by the government. It's supposed to be one of the fundamental principles and rights of a modern enlightened society.

[Sean Hayden]

I think you're right rEv, I just don't think it's possible to apply across the board without exception -hell, we know it's not.

So, what about this particular instance is special and marks it as a kind of violation that will lead to our worst fears being realized? It must be different, else we shouldn't even have this conversation.

Also, it will be nice to actually bring into this what exactly was done and why.

[Tero]

Well, sue the Gubment. Prove to the jury that them storing, and never reading, your e mails brought youendless weeks of worry, disgust and insomnia.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Well, since you have no porn and no inventory of guns in your e mails that Obama stole, why worry?

1. I'm not just worried about me.
2. The issue is not about individual people having to worry or not having to worry, it's about the integrity of the system as a whole, the fairness of the system as a whole, and limits on government power - we are not a police state; I would like to keep it that way.
3. I don't think a person with an inventory of guns in their emails should have to "worry", except to the same extent that anyone else who is reasonably suspected of having committed a crime or having possession of evidence of a crime would have to "worry."
4. I don't think people with porn on their computers should have to "worry", except to the same extent as specified in #3 above.
5. This is not about Obama. This is about who comes after Obama.

I don't believe you.

[pErvinalia]

I think you're right rEv, I just don't think it's possible to apply across the board without exception -hell, we know it's not.

So, what about this particular instance is special and marks it as a kind of violation that will lead to our worst fears being realized? It must be different, else we shouldn't even have this conversation.

Also, it will be nice to actually bring into this what exactly was done and why.

There's a couple of issues, I believe. One is the warrantless-ness off it. And two, includes the fact that the government kept this spying program a secret. This has a flow on effect for people who wish to challenge the constitutionality of this spying. The courts can't hear individual test cases, as there is no evidence that an individual can bring to the court suggest that they are being spied upon, because, conveniently, the government has kept it a secret. Well, now that it is out in the open, there is the chance that the constitutionality of it could be tested in a court.

Here's a short interview which explains this better: http://www.today.com/video/today/52155062#52155062

[Tero]

But they do have a warrant. Your name and mine are on it.

[Robert_S]

I remember hearing of this a long time ago:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON

[Warren Dew]

Only, the program only analyzes for terrorism and security items. That is what they would share. It's not going to share you secret cookie recipe or porn.

Sure ... "terrorism" or "security" issues like whether you're a member of an opposition political group, which seems also to be guiding IRS decisions.