Race Realism

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Re: Race Realism

Post by rainbow » Fri Jan 03, 2020 6:11 am

Woodbutcher wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 11:52 pm
rainbow wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 12:41 pm
Woodbutcher wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2019 11:32 pm
rainbow wrote:
Fri Dec 20, 2019 8:08 am
Brian Peacock wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:22 am
We should remember that Brian Peacock has already pointed out how the obligations of honest discourse simply do not apply when one's focus is portraying oneself to oneself as the brightest light in the room. :)
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Re: Race Realism

Post by Galaxian » Tue Jan 07, 2020 12:38 pm

Brian Peacock wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 1:23 pm
Galaxian wrote:
Brian Peacock wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 11:22 am
L'Emmerdeur wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 4:57 am
The above correlates with the frequently cited (in discussions with crusaders like Galaxian) fact that most genetic variation is found within human populations rather than between them. Though a simplified formulation dealing with a complex topic, it remains accurate.
CRAP! :this: Read up about Lewontin's Fallacy. Covered well in Richard Dawkins' "the Ancestors Tale".
Galaxian is happy that the entity known as Brian Peacock has achieved awareness of sorts, to the extent It is now able to dissociate its consciousness from its physical identity and thus refer to itself in the third person.
Here's a good YouTube video that settles the fact that there are several times more subspecies than species. And these subspecies are erroneously given species names due to ignorance and the vanity of biologists who want the accolade of being identified with the naming honors.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntixPcQUB-g
Image
Brian Peacock wrote:
Thu Jan 02, 2020 1:23 pm
Galaxian's assertion, that human races exist, is not supported by the existence of biological sub-species unless, that is, Galaxian can a) demonstrate that 'race' in the context of human populations is a valid and accepted synonym for 'biological sub-species', and b) identify the biological factors applied to the set of all humans such that each individual can be categorically assigned to one putative race group and consequently distinguished, and therefore excluded, from all other race groups.

Galaxian's silence on these matters continues to be the most noteworthy feature of his screed.
Quite the contrary! Galaxian has never been silent on these matters. But since you fail to understand the rationale you keep thinking that your query has not been answered, whereas it has both here & on the internet in general. Perhaps the following will be useful:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJz66wm95-M No insult intended, but hopefully to enlighten you:
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Re: Race Realism

Post by Brian Peacock » Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:03 pm

You need to support your argument here, not tag team a YouTube video in and declare it self evident. Meet your discursive obligations, or get off the pot.
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Re: Race Realism

Post by L'Emmerdeur » Tue Jan 07, 2020 6:48 pm

Galaxian wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 12:38 pm
L'Emmerdeur wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 4:57 am
The above correlates with the frequently cited (in discussions with crusaders like Galaxian) fact that most genetic variation is found within human populations rather than between them. Though a simplified formulation dealing with a complex topic, it remains accurate.
CRAP! :this: Read up about Lewontin's Fallacy. Covered well in Richard Dawkins' "the Ancestors Tale".
You cut out the text cited from a scientific paper that preceded what you chose to quote from me. That's rather childish--'I can't see it, therefore it doesn't exist.' Did you even attempt to read the paper in question, or was the fact that it isn't a YouTube video preclude the possibility that it contains useful information as far as you're concerned?

The text in question puts paid to your ranting about Lewontin's Fallacy. Science does not support the concept of race as it has been previously understood, and those who continue to promote that concept generally resort to argumentation characterised by its reliance on bad faith, or are simply ignorant.

Additional information for you to ignore:
Indeed, the recognition that variation within human groups vastly exceeds that between human groups was noted explicitly in the second (1951) UNESCO statement on race. Now, however, with genetic data, the observation could be quantified. The most obvious conclusion is that the human species does not come naturally partitioned into reasonably discreet gene pools, which had been the predominant theory of race for most of the twentieth century.

A. W. F. Edwards has recently criticized the invocation of these numbers against the race concept as "Lewontin's fallacy," on the grounds that a proportion of the diversity detectable in the human gene pool is indeed correlated with geography, and thus can be used to sort people into large groups, if one focuses upon it closely enough. The argument here is not with the data, but with the meaning of the data and its relation to human races. Geographical correlations are far weaker hypotheses than genetically discrete races, and they obviously exist in the human species (whether studied somatically or genetically). What is unclear is what this has to do with "race" as that term has been used through much of the twentieth century — the mere fact that we can find groups to be different and can reliably allot people to them is trivial. Again, the point of the theory of race was to discover large clusters of people that are principally homogeneous within, and heterogeneous between, contrasting groups. Lewontin's analysis shows that such groups do not exist in the human species, and Edward's critique does not contradict that interpretation.

[source]
If only the Swedes or Poles survived, we would still retain about 85% of our genetic variation. This is because most variation is within, rather than between, races. On average, any local population contains 85% of all human genetic variation, and any continent contains 94%. This is because humans have always migrated and mixed their genes. Two random Swedes, for example, are likely to be as different as a Swede and a Senegalese.

[source]

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Re: Race Realism

Post by JimC » Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:11 pm

Galaxian misses the fact that the vast majority of his "amazing hybrids" between different species are either completely sterile, of have low reproductive potential, ensuring that the 2 species (if they could actually meet in the wild anyway) would never merge together. Such issues are what makes them true species, not sub-species - as Dawkins said in his book "River out of Eden", their "rivers of life" have become separate streams that can never rejoin...

Real biologists and taxonomists take little interest in the dated concept of sub-species, recognising simply that there can be considerable phenotypic variation within a species, whether geographically based or not.
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Re: Race Realism

Post by L'Emmerdeur » Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:58 pm

This is merely a side skirmish in his long-running battle with facts.

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Re: Race Realism

Post by Galaxian » Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:39 am

L'Emmerdeur wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 6:48 pm
Galaxian wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 12:38 pm
L'Emmerdeur wrote:
Tue Dec 17, 2019 4:57 am
The above correlates with the frequently cited (in discussions with crusaders like Galaxian) fact that most genetic variation is found within human populations rather than between them. Though a simplified formulation dealing with a complex topic, it remains accurate.
CRAP! :this: Read up about Lewontin's Fallacy. Covered well in Richard Dawkins' "the Ancestors Tale".
You cut out the text cited from a scientific paper that preceded what you chose to quote from me. That's rather childish--'I can't see it, therefore it doesn't exist.' Did you even attempt to read the paper in question, or was the fact that it isn't a YouTube video preclude the possibility that it contains useful information as far as you're concerned? :yawn:
"...Two random Swedes, for example, are likely to be as different as a Swede and a Senegalese."
[source]
Is that the best you can do? That's it?! Who is the jackass who wrote that gibberish about random Swedes & Senegalese? Maybe that's why they've opened up the borders, so that when you pick a random Swede you might have picked a refugee from Senegal? No wonder you can't think rationally if you choose uninformed or malicious references, instead of doing First Principles deduction!
Brian Peacock wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:03 pm
You need to support your argument here, not tag team a YouTube video in and declare it self evident. Meet your discursive obligations, or get off the pot.
:yawn:
When I see the color "blue". I say it is blue, and is self-evidentially blue. Is that a hard concept? Perhaps I should refer to its emr wavelength? I have even done that! But you cannot understand it. Here it is again:
Brian Peacock wrote:
Mon Dec 16, 2019 4:20 pm
Galaxian wrote:
Mon Dec 16, 2019 10:51 am
Brian Peacock wrote:
Sun Dec 15, 2019 3:17 pm
... disputing the "ancient & multiple migrations of archaic hominins"...
Infact Galaxian has NEVER disputed hominin migrations. I am one of the advocates of this fact!

"Going by the official DEFINITION of race/subspecies, Galaxian has nailed your feet to the floor. Here it is again. I won't bother translating the bleedin' obvious for you...since you're not interested anyway.

Species: Organisms that find it difficult or impossible to be cross fertile under natural conditions.

Sub-species: Varieties of the same species who can hybridize, but are reluctant to have sexual association/mate.

Sub-species are biologically evident when we examine their genetic distance apart:

https://lesacreduprintemps19.files.word ... ations.pdf

https://d3i71xaburhd42.cloudfront.net/3 ... ble2-1.png
Image

As they say; "What's good for the goose is good for the gander." i.e: Note how other animals are liberally given sub-species names (Number of recognized extant subspecies) , but because of prejudice humans are exempt even though they have more genetic distance, and some human populations may be considered to be separate SPECIES, such as me & my spouse. One reason why there are so many fertility clinics...but you hadn't thought of that, eh?

The above table is the END of this debate. No one has reason to dispute it. Any objection is a fart in the wind. PERIOD! :snooze:

Hey Galaxian. You keep slicing off the direct question in your quotes. One can only presume that you cannot meet the challenge of demonstrating the factor or factors that distinguish one race from another such that everyone belongs one particular race group and is necessarily excluded from every other. :tea:

That's EASY! There's a factor(s) that distinguishes a Congolese Pygmy from a Masai... Be brave; have 3 guesses what it might be.

Look at the above table. If a certain genetic distance is OK to give various animals species/sub-species names, then only a religious bigot could demand that it must not apply to human animals.

We can go further: my spouse & I are almost separate species, since we are NOT cross fertile. So, are we or are we not separate species? And there are millions of people in the same situation... not sterile, but incapable of producing viable offspring with each other, but can do so with another partner. I say "almost" separate species, because we, like others, can have ONE offspring, but subsequent ones will be aborted or be still-born.
As Jim points out below:
JimC wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 8:11 pm
Galaxian misses the fact that the vast majority of his "amazing hybrids" between different species are either completely sterile, of have low reproductive potential, ensuring that the 2 species (if they could actually meet in the wild anyway) would never merge together. Such issues are what makes them true species, not sub-species - as Dawkins said in his book "River out of Eden", their "rivers of life" have become separate streams that can never rejoin...
Real biologists and taxonomists take little interest in the dated concept of sub-species, recognising simply that there can be considerable phenotypic variation within a species, whether geographically based or not.

THAT leads inexorably to extinction. In other words, the cross-mating of non-viable sub-species, in humans as elsewhere, can not compete with the general fecundity of the rest of the population and thus is a dead end.

Unfortunately, Jim gets off to a good start but then muddies his argument by demanding to be PC & navel-gazing. Here: It is not the "vast majority", the word "majority" would have been more accurate.
"Real biologists and taxonomists" take a lot of interest in "sub-species", that's why it's a division used in the nomenclature :coffee:
The true seeker looks for the truth wherever it may be and readily accepts it, without shame, without hope for reward and without fear of punishment._Sam Nejad
There's no Mercy. There's no Justice. There is only Natural Selection! _Galaxian
The more important a news item, the more likely that it's a hidden agenda disinformation_Galaxian
"This world of sheeple has no hope!" Thus just 15 years left before extinction by AI_ Galaxian

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Re: Race Realism

Post by JimC » Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:54 am

Galaxian wrote:

In other words, the cross-mating of non-viable sub-species, in humans as elsewhere...
What utter bullshit. There is simply no populations of humans, anywhere, that have reduced fertility with any other group of humans.

Period.
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Re: Race Realism

Post by pErvinalia » Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:11 am

Galaxian is married to a Martian.
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Re: Race Realism

Post by Galaxian » Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:49 am

JimC wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:54 am
Galaxian wrote:
In other words, the cross-mating of non-viable sub-species, in humans as elsewhere...
What utter bullshit. There is simply no populations of humans, anywhere, that have reduced fertility with any other group of humans.
Period.
Above pile of "utter bullshit" :this: donated by someone who boasts; "To be serious about gin requires years of dedicated research" :drunk:
pErvinalia wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:11 am
Galaxian is married to a Martian.
No. Galaxian is married to an Rh- hominin.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... lood-group
https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... lood-group
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs ... .tb01926.x :coffee:
The true seeker looks for the truth wherever it may be and readily accepts it, without shame, without hope for reward and without fear of punishment._Sam Nejad
There's no Mercy. There's no Justice. There is only Natural Selection! _Galaxian
The more important a news item, the more likely that it's a hidden agenda disinformation_Galaxian
"This world of sheeple has no hope!" Thus just 15 years left before extinction by AI_ Galaxian

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Re: Race Realism

Post by Hermit » Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:19 am

Galaxian wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:49 am
JimC wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:54 am
Galaxian wrote:
In other words, the cross-mating of non-viable sub-species, in humans as elsewhere...
What utter bullshit. There is simply no populations of humans, anywhere, that have reduced fertility with any other group of humans.
Period.
Above pile of "utter bullshit" :this: donated by someone who boasts; "To be serious about gin requires years of dedicated research" :drunk:
Says the man who in all earnestness claims to "visit Mars from time to time", as well as "the more interesting parts of the Solar System" and gets "Paid a good hourly rate as a bonus!" for doing so to boot.

Glaxative, I take the word of someone who has taught science at high school for 40 years rather more readily than a batshit crazy lunatic.
So you talk about mobs and the working classes as if they were the question. You've got that eternal idiotic idea that if anarchy came it would come from the poor. Why should it? The poor have been rebels, but they have never been anarchists; they have more interest than anyone else in there being some decent government. The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all. Aristocrats were always anarchists. - G.K. Chesterton

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Re: Race Realism

Post by rainbow » Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:01 pm

pErvinalia wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:11 am
Galaxian is married to a Martian.
My bad. :ask: I thought he was married to a sheep.
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Re: Race Realism

Post by Galaxian » Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:11 pm

Hermit wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:19 am
Galaxian wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:49 am
JimC wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:54 am
Galaxian wrote:
In other words, the cross-mating of non-viable sub-species, in humans as elsewhere...
What utter bullshit. There is simply no populations of humans, anywhere, that have reduced fertility with any other group of humans.
Period.
Above pile of "utter bullshit" :this: donated by someone who boasts; "To be serious about gin requires years of dedicated research" :drunk:
Says the man who in all earnestness claims to "visit Mars from time to time", as well as "the more interesting parts of the Solar System" and gets "Paid a good hourly rate as a bonus!" for doing so to boot.

Glaxative, I take the word of someone who has taught science at high school for 40 years rather more readily than a batshit crazy lunatic.
As someone said: "Some are born ignorant. Some attain to ignorance. Some have ignorance thrust upon them. And some are all three" :biggrin:
The true seeker looks for the truth wherever it may be and readily accepts it, without shame, without hope for reward and without fear of punishment._Sam Nejad
There's no Mercy. There's no Justice. There is only Natural Selection! _Galaxian
The more important a news item, the more likely that it's a hidden agenda disinformation_Galaxian
"This world of sheeple has no hope!" Thus just 15 years left before extinction by AI_ Galaxian

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Re: Race Realism

Post by rainbow » Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:46 pm

Galaxian wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:11 pm
Hermit wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 11:19 am
Galaxian wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 9:49 am
JimC wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:54 am
Galaxian wrote:
In other words, the cross-mating of non-viable sub-species, in humans as elsewhere...
What utter bullshit. There is simply no populations of humans, anywhere, that have reduced fertility with any other group of humans.
Period.
Above pile of "utter bullshit" :this: donated by someone who boasts; "To be serious about gin requires years of dedicated research" :drunk:
Says the man who in all earnestness claims to "visit Mars from time to time", as well as "the more interesting parts of the Solar System" and gets "Paid a good hourly rate as a bonus!" for doing so to boot.

Glaxative, I take the word of someone who has taught science at high school for 40 years rather more readily than a batshit crazy lunatic.
As someone said: "Some are born ignorant. Some attain to ignorance. Some have ignorance thrust upon them. And some are all three" :biggrin:

...so let me get this straight you're the sheep and she's the Martian?
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Re: Race Realism

Post by Brian Peacock » Fri Jan 10, 2020 5:37 pm

Galaxian wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 8:39 am
...
THAT leads inexorably to extinction. In other words, the cross-mating of non-viable sub-species, in humans as elsewhere, can not compete with the general fecundity of the rest of the population and thus is a dead end.
...
Look Galaxian mate. You may have shifted your ground away from 'race' and onto 'sub-species' but if your contention that the two terms are functional synonyms, such that a human race is a sub-species of humans, and that races/sub-species of humans exist, then you should be able to articulate the conditions or factors which distinguish one race/sub-species from another generally and how those conditions or factors are expressed in the human population specifically. And when I say 'you should be able to articulate it' I mean YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO ARTICULATE IT rather than obliging others to do the leg work of trying to figure out how some asserted self-evident truth is supposed to operate from a series of seemingly random YouTube videos. In other words, taking others to task for not accepting an objective claim depends upon demonstrating the terms in which the claim might be objectively true in circumstances where merely having an opinion echoed by the opinions of others does not render a claim, assertion or declarative statement true or factual or demonstrable by default.

You've been asked for this kind of scrutable definition over and over and have failed at every turm to meet that basic challenge, and consequently you have, by your own hand, rooted your 'argument' in the realm of blind assertion and opinion only.

If race exists then what is the race of a person who is the offspring of a Native Australian and an Inuit, and what is the race of the offspring of that individual and someone whose parents were, for example, Ndebele and Tuvan? What and where are the non-permiable boundaries between races?
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