What if Vegans are Actually Right?

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It is good for the planet?

Hectic
1
6%
Bacon and Cheese
5
29%
Yes
6
35%
Cheese but not Bacon
2
12%
No
3
18%
 
Total votes: 17

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Re: What if Vegans are Actually Right?

Post by Scot Dutchy » Sun Oct 27, 2019 7:32 am

Too much power. So bloody aggressive. They are trying to make meat eating into a taboo like smoking.
Theirs is not a healthy diet Brian. When you cant get everything out of your diet to live then it is not healthy. They cant but of course they claim they can We are natural meat protein eaters.
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Re: What if Vegans are Actually Right?

Post by Brian Peacock » Sun Oct 27, 2019 7:13 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 7:32 am
Too much power. So bloody aggressive. They are trying to make meat eating into a taboo like smoking.
Theirs is not a healthy diet Brian. When you cant get everything out of your diet to live then it is not healthy. They cant but of course they claim they can We are natural meat protein eaters.
If the issue of vegans dietary choices are mired in aggression then that aggression is at least going both ways - perhaps read the article I posted entitled "Why do people hate vegans?" to see how that aggression is distributed or balanced etc. If you think that vegan aggression entirely justifies your own, then you really don't have a basis for objecting to vegan aggression do you - unless you're happy to apply a double standard.

As for power: come on man, really? Which vegans are forcing you to be a vegetarian? When you go to the supermarket do you stop at the cheese counter, look around nervously, and say to yourself, "Better not... don't want to upset the vegans."? Do you have to source your meat and dairy products from back street butchers and underground yoghurteers? On your way back from the shops are your shopping bags routinely inspected by the vegan police, "Got any chops in there sonny?"

Some vegans are politically pro animal rights, some vegans are pro human rights and see animal justice as something inextricably bound to social justice, some vegans are taking a personal moral stance based on reducing harms, and some vegans just don't like the idea of eating something that's been chopped off or exuded from an animal.

Everything is available in the shops and so, if one has control over the contents of one's shopping basket, it all boils down to choice. So which vegans are controlling your shopping basket?

What you're objecting to is the political outlook of some vegans, but in disagreeing with some you're happy to play the victim and say that all vegans are oppressing you and forcing you to make dietary choices you'd rather not make. Nonetheless, hand-waving away all vegan political ideas stymies debate and calling all vegan "insane" is basically at dehumanising tactic to avoid paying attention to anything on vegans and veganism that doesn't come out of your own mouth. In this light your objection to supposed vegan aggression simply melts away in heat of its own farts.

How many non-vegans who live above/below 37 degrees north/south are aware that they're probably deficient in vitamin D? By your own definition, "when you cant get everything out of your diet to live," they're unhealthy regardless of their dietary choices. A healthy diet is not one that includes or leave out a particular culinary ingredient, but one that is balanced and meets one's nutritional requirements. Most vegetarians and the overwhelming majority of vegans know about the B12 deficit of a meat-free diet and probably take supplements. How is this unhealthy, or at least, how is the unhealthier than living above/below 37 degrees?
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Re: What if Vegans are Actually Right?

Post by Scot Dutchy » Sun Oct 27, 2019 7:51 pm

Vegans should worry how we treat each other. Stop worrying about animals. This to me is the worst crime ever:

The living hell of young girls enslaved in Bangladesh's brothels

This really turns my stomach. 10 year olds! Fuck a few cows. Get this shit sorted out.
Sold by traffickers, trapped for years and raped many times a day … this is the life of tens of thousands of underage girls in Bangladesh. We hear their stories

After five years in the brothel, Labonni stopped dreaming of being rescued. Ever since she had been sold to a madam at 13 years old, customers had promised to help her escape. None had followed through. Over time, their faces began to blur together, so she couldn’t remember exactly who had visited before, or how many men had come by that day. There’s usually one every hour, starting from 9am.

“Sometimes I wake up and I don’t understand why I’m not dead yet,” she says.

Now 19, Labonni says she’s resigned to life – and death – in Mymensingh, a brothel village in the centre of Bangladesh. Here, between 700 and 1,000 women and girls are working in the sex trade – many of them against their will.

Girls as young as 12 sleep five to a room; their beds only cordoned off by torn cotton curtains. Music blares from heavyset sound systems and homemade liquor is poured from plastic bottles to numb the pain. Men swagger shirtless down the alleys looking for girls. Ten minutes of sex will cost them TK400 (about £3.66) – but it’s money that mainly lands in the pockets of those running the brothel.

Like the majority of girls in Mymensingh, Labonni was trafficked into sex work. On the run at 13 years old, she left her six-month-old daughter behind to flee the abusive husband she had been made to marry the year before, in a ceremony that took place on the same day she started her period. “I didn’t know where I was going,” she remembers. “I thought maybe I could find work in a garment factory.
Vegans fuck them sideways. Stop worrying about cows.
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Re: What if Vegans are Actually Right?

Post by Brian Peacock » Sun Oct 27, 2019 8:26 pm

Meh. Is posturing and generalising from the particular all you got eh? I think you're going to have to demonstrate that vegans are generally unconcerned about sex cults and/or the sexual exploitation of children to make that lame ad hominem stick.

What you're doing is what psychologists call 'othering'. Othering is when we define the other in order to define ourselves - if I'm defining others as 'less than' then I'm also defining myself as 'better than' in relation to them. Othering is a feature of bigotry and works the same way against vegans and veganism as it operates in racism, homophobia, sexism, transphobia, fatism, ablism, religious or political bigotry, etc - vegans are less than me, therefore I am better than vegans. Some might call that kind of othering veganophobia. I wouldn't, but some might. :tea:
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: What if Vegans are Actually Right?

Post by Scot Dutchy » Sun Oct 27, 2019 9:00 pm

All that vegans are concerned with is veganism Brian. Ever met them? They can only think about that cow's milk is for the calf. Other people? Please do me a favour. They cant think past their lentils. Sorry there are really big problems in the world other than who drinks the cow's milk. BTW vegans dont buy leather shoes but they buy plastic. Saving the world? Save their kids more like it. They are abusing their kids.
Othering? What a load of bollocks Brian. Stop with the insults. I am really surprised.
Vegans cant produce any data that their life style is any better when all the data proves it is worse. They have eat artificial man made food to survive.

Those poor girls in Bangladesh are less important than a few cows. Sorry. Get child abuse including theirs out of the world is far more important. I think "othering" is really on the other foot. Who feels more superior? I dont but they do. Saving the world :funny: they will never.
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Re: What if Vegans are Actually Right?

Post by Brian Peacock » Mon Oct 28, 2019 12:42 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 9:00 pm
All that vegans are concerned with is veganism Brian. Ever met them? They can only think about that cow's milk is for the calf. Other people? Please do me a favour. They cant think past their lentils. Sorry there are really big problems in the world other than who drinks the cow's milk. BTW vegans dont buy leather shoes but they buy plastic. Saving the world? Save their kids more like it. They are abusing their kids.
You're still defining vegans as if they all belong to one malign veganish blob. Sure, some vegans are stridently dogmatic in their politics, but who do you think is feeding you this view that all vegans are stridently dogmatic, intolerant asshats? You should read that article if you're interested in the issue, but if you're only interested in validating your own myopic viewpoint then carry on exactly as your are - it's no skin off my melon.
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 9:00 pm
Othering? What a load of bollocks Brian. Stop with the insults. I am really surprised.
Insult? You called every vegan insane! :roll: It wasn't an insult, it was a description of a tactic - I used to reflect how your view had come across to me. I'm quite prepared to be wrong btw, but it seemed an apt description given your recent responses.

I actually addressed every one of your previous points and you responded with a horrendous story of child sexual exploitation as a means to dehumanise vegans, to impugn their humanity by questioning their capacity for empathy, sympathy, moral thought and conduct. Basically, it was a cheap shot. I even pointed out why your come-back was fallacious, but you don't really seem interested in justifying your assertions, only in laying down the law as it were. Surprisingly that's rather 'Anglo-Saxon mindset' of you.
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 9:00 pm
Vegans cant produce any data that their life style is any better when all the data proves it is worse. They have eat artificial man made food to survive.
See, you can't help yourself can you(?) Veganism has a number of justifications, most of them are moral justifications. What data would you accept in support of a moral argument? I've pointed out how a meat-free and animal-free diet isn't necessarily any more or less healthy than one which contains meat and animal products. Again, you've seemingly no interest in this and no answer to it beyond repeating your blinkered, Anglo-Saxon viewpoint.
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 9:00 pm
Those poor girls in Bangladesh are less important than a few cows. Sorry. Get child abuse including theirs out of the world is far more important. I think "othering" is really on the other foot. Who feels more superior? I dont but they do. Saving the world :funny: they will never.
Hey, here's an idea. Rather than concocting a list of priorities where we have to solve each problem on your list in the correct order before you'll agree we're qualified to solve the next one, how about we take each issue or problem on its own merits and try and address things like inequity, abuse and exploitation etc as and where we find them - whether that's the abusive exploitation of humans or animals?

I await your next missive with barely contained indifference.
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: What if Vegans are Actually Right?

Post by rainbow » Mon Oct 28, 2019 7:36 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 9:00 pm
All that vegans are concerned with is veganism Brian.
:prof: All generalisations are false :prof:
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Re: What if Vegans are Actually Right?

Post by Scot Dutchy » Mon Oct 28, 2019 8:20 am

The moralism of veganism :funny: :funny:

An an oxymoron. FFS.
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Re: What if Vegans are Actually Right?

Post by laklak » Mon Oct 28, 2019 9:03 am

Only a Vegan Sith deals in absolutes.
Yeah well that's just, like, your opinion, man.

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Re: What if Vegans are Actually Right?

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Oct 28, 2019 9:31 am

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Re: What if Vegans are Actually Right?

Post by Brian Peacock » Mon Oct 28, 2019 10:49 am

rainbow wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 7:36 am
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 9:00 pm
All that vegans are concerned with is veganism Brian.
:prof: All generalisations are false :prof:
Generally I tend to agree. :tea:
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: What if Vegans are Actually Right?

Post by Brian Peacock » Mon Oct 28, 2019 10:51 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 8:20 am
The moralism of veganism :funny: :funny:

An an oxymoron. FFS.
Not that you'll explain how or why though eh?



You might not agree with :this: but you can't say it isn't a moral argument.
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: What if Vegans are Actually Right?

Post by Scot Dutchy » Mon Oct 28, 2019 12:16 pm

A very American perspective spoken by a woman with a terrible accent. All this animal suffering is purely a vegan propaganda stunt. There is nothing moral about the argument. Just "missy goodshoes" from a fairly well off middle class background trying to justify the vegan stance. Vegans cant take criticism. They are like religious maniacs who think they are right and everybody else is wrong. We are not talking about vegetarians but vegans. I often eat vegetarian meals and cook it myself. I never use lentils, chickpeas or soya. You cant trace the source or method used to produce them.
They live on manufactured food. It is not natural as most has to be processed. I never eat processed or artificial foods. They cant survive without them. This is the big vegan myth. It is all packaged to look as if it is natural. My supermarket has a whole cabinet with vegan food. Just why do they want pseudo meat? Why call it steak, chops and drum sticks?
One thing it is not and that is organic. All soya and other beans has to be sprayed many times. What does that do for the environment and wild life? All those lovely wild animals? They also need plenty of artificial fertilisers. To call it a plant based diet is another myth. It is an artificial diet which has to backed up by taking vitamin pills. Not giving kids at an early age any dairy products is amounting to child abuse.
We got our large brains thanks to meat protein. Plant protein is second class. Even our closest cousins eat meat protein and crave for it. Vegetarians realise this which is why fish is often part of their diet.
We can in this country easily source our food and animal welfare and husbandry is strictly controlled which is far better than anything that comes from the factory.

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Re: What if Vegans are Actually Right?

Post by Brian Peacock » Mon Oct 28, 2019 1:21 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 12:16 pm
A very American perspective spoken by a woman with a terrible accent.
She's Canadian, and entirely un-American in her perspective and her politics.
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 12:16 pm
All this animal suffering is purely a vegan propaganda stunt.
Are you unconcerned about animal welfare? If you're not unconcerned is your actual concern purely a stunt? Do you think farming dogs for food, crating calves in the dark for veal, or driving dolphins to shore to be harpooned in the shallows is absolutely fine for example?
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 12:16 pm
There is nothing moral about the argument. Just "missy goodshoes" from a fairly well off middle class background trying to justify the vegan stance.
So you say. And I'll note that you'd rather demean the Vlogger personally than engage with or counter any of her points specifically.
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 12:16 pm
Vegans cant take criticism. They are like religious maniacs who think they are right and everybody else is wrong. We are not talking about vegetarians but vegans.
You didn't watch the video did you? She was talking about the difference between so-called Veganism™ as a prescribed shopping list and veganism as a political stance that encompassed animal welfare in the broadest of terms - including the human animal. There's no distinction between a vegan and their veganism. One of the things the video showed is that not all vegans conform to the same kind of veganism or justify it on or in the same terms. And besides, don't you think your right and everybody else is wrong? Does that make you some kind of religious zealot too?
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 12:16 pm
I often eat vegetarian meals and cook it myself. I never use lentils, chickpeas or soya. You cant trace the source or method used to produce them.
Good on you for making some specific food choices that exclude certain culinary ingredients based on your personal political perspectives and environmental concerns. Now remind me how this is essentially any different to a political vegan (beyond just you being right and vegans being wrong of course)?
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 12:16 pm
They live on manufactured food. It is not natural as most has to be processed. I never eat processed or artificial foods. They cant survive without them. This is the big vegan myth. It is all packaged to look as if it is natural. My supermarket has a whole cabinet with vegan food. Just why do they want pseudo meat? Why call it steak, chops and drum sticks?
Again, you didn't watch the video. She deals specifically with that issue and also addresses the fact that a great many people live in food deserts where their access to fresh, healthy ingredients, let alone so-called 'ethical food', is limited or non-existent.
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 12:16 pm
One thing it is not and that is organic. All soya and other beans has to be sprayed many times. What does that do for the environment and wild life? All those lovely wild animals? They also need plenty of artificial fertilisers.
You really didn't watch the video. She talked specifically about those issues and those kinds of contradictions, giving the example of Californian almond production where the heavy use of neonicotinoid pesticides has killed off the pollinators the crops depend on, so that pollinators have to be brought in to sustain production. The issue being the heavy-handed use of agricultural pesticides and the contradiction being one where vegans who put honey on the proscribed list of forbidden foods but who still buy Californian almonds are implicitly involved in destroying the bee populations they say they're trying to protect.
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 12:16 pm
To call it a plant based diet is another myth. It is an artificial diet which has to backed up by taking vitamin pills.
I dealt with that naturalistic fallacy of composition earlier. It's called a plant-based diet because it's a diet based on plants and the fact that the majority of vegans supplement their diets is no more or less artificial or unnatural that people who live above/below 37 degrees north/south supplementing their vitimin D.
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 12:16 pm
Not giving kids at an early age any dairy products is amounting to child abuse.
In some cultures diary products are routinely avoided or simply unavailable. Traditional Korean food is devoid of dairy with a large percentage of the population being lactose intolerant. Are Korean who avoid dairy unhealthy child abusers, or the non-agrarian indigenous peoples of the Western Ghats?
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 12:16 pm
We got our large brains thanks to meat protein.
Citation required. I would imagine there's a complex of influences on the evolution of our brain with nutrition being simply one of them.
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 12:16 pm
Plant protein is second class. Even our closest cousins eat meat protein and crave for it.
Tell that to the Gorillas.
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 12:16 pm
Vegetarians realise this which is why fish is often part of their diet.
So if I don't crave fish or fowl then it's OK for me to not eat them, like if I don't crave mushrooms or celery? I wouldn't call someone who avoids land-meat but eats water-meat a vegetarian, and I'd say they were mistaken if they called themselves that.
Scot Dutchy wrote:
Mon Oct 28, 2019 12:16 pm
We can in this country easily source our food and animal welfare and husbandry is strictly controlled which is far better than anything that comes from the factory.
Bully for you. Just because there are strict controls in the production line does not mean that the production isn't a factory system, nor does it mean that the sentient animals with agency and bodily autonomy in the system, including the human animals, are not being exploited and/or abused for profit. After all, welfare standards are merely limits on the scope or extent of exploitation and abuse, they do not remove or entirely mitigate abuse and exploitation. As I suggested up there, do you think that strict, enforcible standards in farming dogs for food, crating calves in the dark for veal, or driving dolphins to shore to be harpooned would make those practices acceptible?
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: What if Vegans are Actually Right?

Post by laklak » Mon Oct 28, 2019 1:37 pm

I've heard the term "pescetarian" for someone who eats fish, and "flexitarian" for a mostly vegetarian but occasional carnivore. My nephew calls himself a "mammalarian", he'll eat chicken and fish but not mammals. We eat vegetarian or vegan a couple of times a week, a LOT of people we know here are vegetarians and I'm trying to bulk up my recipe collection. I'm getting pretty good with veggie curries. But tonight is Mozambique peri-peri spatchcock chicken on the braai.
Yeah well that's just, like, your opinion, man.

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