What if Vegans are Actually Right?

[rainbow]

How do vegetarians taste ?? stringy ???

Not at all. Get them young and tender, we say.

[rasetsu]

You don't "present" anything raetsu ...you opine and speculate.
I'm not advocating vegan, vegetarian, macrobiotic etc except reduced red meat consumption and offering some lower impact healthier allternatives.....the rest is your imagination.

Bullshit. I pointed out that your reasons for doing so were ideological, and instead of acknowledging that simple fact, you denied it and continued on with your inane ranting. You seem to forget where this began which was with me asking what's the point. You aren't taking care of future generations because the effects of what you are doing aren't significant enough to matter. Global warming is already at or past the tipping point and so your eating a few meatless meals isn't doing dick for future generations, all it's doing is furnishing you with a smug sense of superiority and relieving some guilt that you might otherwise feel.

[Brian Peacock]

I tend to agree with rasetsu's broader point here. I don't believe we can consume our way to a better, more sustainable planet simply by buying 'ethical' or 'happy' meat, substituting-in some meat-alternative products here-or-there, or reducing personal consumption - if we are not also challenging the structures which support and maintain our wider systems of consumption, and the values which underpin them.

[Svartalf]

you vile red commie

[Strontium Dog]

Certainly a contradiction in terms:

"Plant based"

"Meatballs"

"Meat" as a word originally referred to any type of food; it is only relatively recently that its meaning was narrowed to animal flesh.

Veggies are reclaiming meat.

[Brian Peacock]

you vile red commie

More rainbowy that red these days

[pErvinalia]

I tend to agree with rasetsu's broader point here. I don't believe we can consume our way to a better, more sustainable planet simply by buying 'ethical' or 'happy' meat, substituting-in some meat-alternative products here-or-there, or reducing personal consumption - if we are not also challenging the structures which support and maintain our wider systems of consumption, and the values which underpin them.

Your views are clouded by your ideological anti-capitalist stance. We've all got to be responsible for our part we play in emitting CO2. You can't just say, well I'm not going to do anything because... capitalism. That's shirking responsibility.

[Brian Peacock]

I tend to agree with rasetsu's broader point here. I don't believe we can consume our way to a better, more sustainable planet simply by buying 'ethical' or 'happy' meat, substituting-in some meat-alternative products here-or-there, or reducing personal consumption - if we are not also challenging the structures which support and maintain our wider systems of consumption, and the values which underpin them.

Your views are clouded by your ideological anti-capitalist stance. We've all got to be responsible for our part we play in emitting CO2. You can't just say, well I'm not going to do anything because... capitalism. That's shirking responsibility.

If I'd said that you'd have a point - but I'm not saying it's pointless to take what steps one can to limit one's environmental impact (nor that we just need to flush the capitalists down the bog). What I'm suggesting is that consuming less or different kinds of stuff isn't the way to achieve a better, more sustainable world if one is not also actively engaged in attempting to understand and challenge the structures, systems and operating assumptions (values) which drive and decide what stuff is available to begin with, how it's made, where the raw materials come from, who has access to it and who doesn't, who/what is benefitting and who/what is being disadvantaged, etc etc.

In light of more structural or systematic approaches, declaring that one is a 'custodian of the future' for eating a veggie burger here-and-there comes across as somewhat... how shall I put it(?) ... hubristic.

[macdoc]

We are custodians of the future like it not and yes a shift in eating habits can have an major effect on AGW, biome preservation and land use policy.

It was said renewables could never replace coal etc ....now they are the cheapest form of energy.

It's hardly hubris to do what I am comfortable with to shift eating habits and promote products that are tasty and more environmentally sound ...being conscious of the fish I buy, less plastic packaging etc.
I don't think the vegans are correct health wise/ nutrition wise without hoop jumping to replace nutrients.
Free range meat replacements will and are getting cheaper and better and the cost of free range going up and up. I wince when I see meat prices at the store.

Relying on "institutions" to save the planets bacon is obviously flawed.
People and corps and institutions/NGOs govs all are playing a role.
Wringing hands and moaning as seems the way for some does nothing.

Ironically one of the good changes in cleaning up the impact of ocean shipping has resulted in the hottest ocean and atmosphere yet.

[macdoc]

dup post - was hard to get on the board today

[macdoc]

All in your imagination .....Rae and you have presented nothing

I'm satisfied I'm doing some positives to shift habits and presenting alternatives to products that are environmentally destructive ...has nothing to do with smug.
Perv at least gets it - you don't.
I prefer my approach to your do nothing fatalism.

[JimC]

I'm steering a middle ground here. I'd say that there are a whole variety of personal choices, including eating less meat, that are worth doing, and will have some effect, particularly if many start doing them. However, such changes are only a relatively small part of what is required to have a serious impact on global warming. New technology is part of what is needed, but our efforts would be a lot more successful if there are structural changes in our political and economic systems...

[macdoc]

Dunno about small part ...14.5 % of emissions globally are meat related yet progress is being made
Australia making progress

In 2020, total GHG emissions attributed to the red meat industry were 51.25 Mt CO2-e, representing a 6.4% decrease compared to the previous year (2019) and a 64.9% decrease compared to the reference year of 2005. These emissions represented 10.3% of national GHG emissions in 2020.21 June 2023

these are individuals making choices on what to eat...

The United Nations Food and Agriculture Organization reports that the consumption of beef per capita worldwide has declined for 15 years. Nearly a fourth of Americans claimed to have eaten less meat in 2019, according to a Gallup poll.3 Mar 2022

so yes those choices collectively make a huge difference.
Now some are ideological choices...animal cruelty or just plain stewardship - others financial. When I first visited a Maccers with my parents in the 50s $10 fed a family of four with burgers, fries and drinks.
With cost of living rocketing up disposable income drops....eating out drops ( we hardly ever now except me and fast food deals circa $5 ),

Fast-food brands Taco Bell, KFC and Pizza Hut, which are all operated by Yum Brands, are starting to see consumers pull back. Yum Brands recently reported weak sales growth for all three fast-food chains in its fourth-quarter earnings for 2023.7 Feb 2024

https://www.thestreet.com/restaurants/m ... for%202023.

Democracies have far more difficulty making decisions for massive infrastructure changes ( nuclear power etc ) as long as neanderthals keep getting elected.

It will take a million Manhattan projects at all levels to get AGW in some semblance of being controlled.
So much progress is offset by the forests burning especially in Siberia and Canada plus the methane being released in the same northern areas.
Very possible we've kicked it past any recovery to pre-industrial and future humans have a hotter world to deal with and short of a technical breakthrough for removing carbon....fugedaboudit.

The other aspect is upwardly mobile second world economies wanting more of the middle class rewards first world economies have, meat every day, cars for everyone and a bjillion ice scooters.

This should be required reading for every pol.

With its emphasis on scientific accuracy and non-fiction descriptions of history and social science, the novel is classified as hard science fiction.

Jim I think you'd really enjoy it.

[Brian Peacock]

Meh. You often cite The Ministry of the Future to specifically argue against the shifts in values and the kinds of action it advocates. If it's a manual for addressing climate change shouldn't we also be blowing up private jets, pipelines, and supertankers, imposing a moratorium on air travel, dissolving global corporations, employing UN blackops to manipulate media and governments, forcefully reformatting our systems of governance and representation to deliberately exclude capital interests, and deliberately refocusing our economies away from the systemic inequality, capital growth and asset price inflation that predominantly benefits the more-than-rich-enough to the detriment of everyone else, as well as massively upscaling science, engineering and infrastructure investment and development? How do you achieve the latter without some elements of the former? Without a coherent theory of change all you're doing is the equivalent of congratulating yourself for choosing the vegetarian option on a long haul flight while chiding the people you're flying over for simultaneously not doing enough and having unrealistic expectations.

Meat consumption per capita in Australia has actually increased in the last 10 years, meaning any carbon reductions from domestic production and processing must be being offset against increases elsewhere - so-called outsourced emissions - including additional impacts from transportation. And while agricultural commodity prices are predicted to rise steadily over the short to medium term returns to producers are predicted to continue to fall, which highlights a systemic economic imbalance that sees gains and revenues trickling upwards with increasing rapidity - if these systems remain unchallenged and continue to resist being reformed.

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[pErvinalia]

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Capitalist!