My own version of gravity. Tear this to bits.

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Re: My own version of gravity. Tear this to bits.

Post by pErvinalia » Sat Oct 21, 2017 5:34 pm

mistermack wrote:When I was first chewing over this idea, it was the similarity between acceleration and gravity that was nagging at me.


Acceleration of what?

And gravity is a force, so it acts upon mass by accelerating it.
Why would they be so similar? When you open the throttle of a powerful bike, you immediately feel a new "gravity" pulling your body backwards. Yet there is one big problem staring at you, if you try to picture the two phenomena being the same. And that is the speed of light.
I have a force of about 80kg pushing at my feet 24/7. I'm obviously not going anywhere, so how can this be due to acceleration? Ok, so introduce the idea of space accelerating past me into the Earth. Now I could be accelerating, relative to space. BUT, if I keep accelerating at 9.81 m/s², I worked it out that I would hit the speed of light in less than a year. (353 days and 20 hrs to nearest hour, if you're interested.)


The speed of light in an accelerating frame of reference isn't the same as in an inertial frame.
So in less than a year, I would have broken the speed of light, relative to the space passing me by.
So how can you constantly accelerate, and yet not go any faster?


You're making the mistake of mixing up accelerating frames of reference with inertial frames of reference.
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Re: My own version of gravity. Tear this to bits.

Post by mistermack » Sat Oct 21, 2017 7:00 pm

As a bit more information, I posted the same thread first a week ago over on scienceforums.net in the physics section.

Normally, any kind of speculative thread like this is torn to bits by the resident experts over there. They usually take great pleasure in refuting stuff like this.
It's been there for more than a week, and as yet they haven't savaged it in the normal fashion. Having said that, they certainly haven't endorsed it either. Either they are being very kind, (not the usual reaction), or have no interest (normally, they are interested enough to rubbish stuff within minutes) or whatever.
It's a bit mysterious. I did expect an instant reaction, of "this is rubbish because ....... " and I would have been quite happy with that.
I did ask for it to be refuted, after all. But so far, they haven't obliged.
Here's the link : http://www.scienceforums.net/topic/1108 ... this-down/

Maybe there's no fun in rubbishing something, when the poster actually asks for that. :hehe:
There are some people over there who really do know their physics, so it is a bit bewildering that they haven't got stuck in. Maybe they think I'm too nice to upset. :D
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Re: My own version of gravity. Tear this to bits.

Post by mistermack » Sat Oct 21, 2017 7:28 pm

pErvin wrote: Acceleration of what?

Acceleration of anything.
pErvin wrote: And gravity is a force, so it acts upon mass by accelerating it.

Not according to relativity. Gravity is curved space time. If you step off a cliff, you are simply following the curve, and it requires a force from the Earth to prevent you from falling inertially in curved space time
pErvin wrote: The speed of light in an accelerating frame of reference isn't the same as in an inertial frame.

I don't see the relevance of that. Nobody is using accelerating reference frames here.
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Re: My own version of gravity. Tear this to bits.

Post by JimC » Sat Oct 21, 2017 8:59 pm

mistermack wrote:
Brian Peacock wrote:Acceleration is a quantity, gravity is a force.
According to General relativity, gravity and acceleration are indistinguishable. Gravity isn't modelled as a force, but the result of curvature of space time.

You feel a force, from gravity. But you also feel a force from acceleration in exactly the same way, as a push in your back, when you hit the accelerator of an f1 car.
Physics makes this an important principle, underpinning an Eisteinian view of space time, that inertial mass and gravitational mass are equivalent.
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Re: My own version of gravity. Tear this to bits.

Post by pErvinalia » Sun Oct 22, 2017 1:54 am

mistermack wrote:
pErvin wrote: Acceleration of what?

Acceleration of anything.
You said "why would they be so similar". How is the acceleration of anything similar to gravity? This makes no sense. The only way the acceleration of any random body is similar to gravity is that they both involve acceleration. That's not telling us anything new.
pErvin wrote: And gravity is a force, so it acts upon mass by accelerating it.

Not according to relativity. Gravity is curved space time. If you step off a cliff, you are simply following the curve, and it requires a force from the Earth to prevent you from falling inertially in curved space time
Yes, gravity is curved space time. That doesn't change the fact that it exerts a force on a body and accelerates it.
pErvin wrote: The speed of light in an accelerating frame of reference isn't the same as in an inertial frame.

I don't see the relevance of that. Nobody is using accelerating reference frames here.
You were. You calculated how long it would take you to accelerate to the speed of light. You are in an accelerating frame in that calculation. Time and distance would pass at a different rate for you than it would for those not accelerating.
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Re: My own version of gravity. Tear this to bits.

Post by mistermack » Sun Oct 22, 2017 11:09 am

JimC wrote: Physics makes this an important principle, underpinning an Eisteinian view of space time, that inertial mass and gravitational mass are equivalent.
The equivalence principle is here in wiki :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equivalence_principle
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Re: My own version of gravity. Tear this to bits.

Post by Brian Peacock » Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:37 pm

Apples and oranges.
wiki wrote:In the theory of general relativity, the equivalence principle is any of several related concepts dealing with the equivalence of gravitational and inertial mass.
MrM wrote:According to General relativity, gravity and acceleration are indistinguishable.
Brian Peacock wrote:Now you're throwing inertia into the bag with acceleration and gravity, and then shaking it all about a bit.
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Re: My own version of gravity. Tear this to bits.

Post by mistermack » Sun Oct 22, 2017 10:46 pm

The equivalence principle is explored here at Einstein online.
http://www.einstein-online.info/spotlig ... _principle
It's a shame Einstein didn't live to be put right on this forum. He did a lot of work sorting out the equivalence principle, really sweated over it. He could have been saved all that work if Rationalia had been around at the time.

The point I was trying to make, is that the stand-out difference between acceleration and gravity, is what happens over extended time.
The elevator in space can provide a situation that's indistinguishable from a gravitational field, and one in a gravitational field can simulate zero gravity by dropping. But neither can keep it going indefinitely. So it's genuinely equivalent, but it's time limited.

What I proposed in the OP is the only way that you can unify gravity and acceleration as truly equivalent, ie the same phenomenon.
With space being funnelled in that way, you can have constant acceleration, that isn't time limited. ie gravity.
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Re: My own version of gravity. Tear this to bits.

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Oct 23, 2017 2:01 am

Except for when all the space is sucked away.
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Re: My own version of gravity. Tear this to bits.

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Oct 23, 2017 2:14 am

And you still haven't addressed the problems in this:
mistermack wrote: I have a force of about 80kg pushing at my feet 24/7. I'm obviously not going anywhere, so how can this be due to acceleration? Ok, so introduce the idea of space accelerating past me into the Earth. Now I could be accelerating, relative to space. BUT, if I keep accelerating at 9.81 m/s², I worked it out that I would hit the speed of light in less than a year. (353 days and 20 hrs to nearest hour, if you're interested.)
So in less than a year, I would have broken the speed of light, relative to the space passing me by.
One, you are mixing up inertial frames with an accelerating frame; and two, you are mixing up acceleration with velocity. The space being sucked into the earth would have long ago before any life existed on the planet reached the speed of light.
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Re: My own version of gravity. Tear this to bits.

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Oct 23, 2017 4:56 am

The other thing to say about this is that, unlike inertial frames, accelerating frames are privileged. So something accelerating past a stationary you at 10m/s/s isn't interchangeable with you accelerating past a stationary space/object. The frame doing the accelerating is privileged, and as such any application of relativity has to apply to that frame, not yours.
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Re: My own version of gravity. Tear this to bits.

Post by normal » Mon Oct 23, 2017 6:44 am

:dunno:
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Re: My own version of gravity. Tear this to bits.

Post by pErvinalia » Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:49 am

Normal declares MM's theory - normal!
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Re: My own version of gravity. Tear this to bits.

Post by normal » Mon Oct 23, 2017 7:53 am

pErvin wrote:Normal declares MM's theory - normal!
I... I'm not sure that's what I did, but let's roll with it :drunk:
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Re: My own version of gravity. Tear this to bits.

Post by Brian Peacock » Mon Oct 23, 2017 10:03 am

I like normal's hat.
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