The Great Climate Debate: Potholer vs Steve Crowder.

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Re: The Great Climate Debate: Potholer vs Steve Crowder.

Post by Brian Peacock » Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:09 pm

mistermack wrote:
Brian Peacock wrote:
mistermack wrote:You say that Al Gore being a lying shit should be inconsequential to me.
But you started a thread and keep posting about Steve Crowder.

There ! I've explained hypocrisy for you. Hope you get it now.
So are you saying that Crowder hasn't misrepresented science or out-and-out lied about what climate scientists are saying and/or have said, such that calling Crowder out on this is hypocritical?

I really hope you can clear this one up for me. :tea:
It's hypocritical for ani to say " Also, you don't believe in climate change, so Al Gore being a lying shit should be inconsequential to you." when he doesn't apply the same rule to to himself re. Steve Crowder .

I don't see what needs clearing up in that.
But I think he makes a good and broader point - If someone doesn't believe in climate change what does it matter that Al Gore has a massive carbon footprint? That's a moral objection to the actions of an individual that doesn't change the science nor lend weight to any arguments that deny climate science and climate change. Unlike Crowder, Gore didn't set out to misrepresent the science, he just tried to popularise it. That parts of Gore's film turn out to be wrong on this-or-that point is not an argument against climate science as an area of academic interest, but an argument favour of the scientific method, which progresses knowledge incrementally and revises our understanding of the world in light of accumulated evidences. This can only be seen as a failure if one considers science an exercise in absolutism - that whatever science shows to be the case today must forever and always remain the case. No rational person accepts this as a valid basis for scientific endeavour. We can know how and why Gore was wrong on this-or=that because we have subsequent observations and datasets, whereas Crowder is wrong on the science by choice and because to do otherwise wouldn't support his thesis. So the question remains: Are you saying that Crowder hasn't misrepresented science or out-and-out lied about what climate scientists are saying and/or have said, such that calling Crowder out on this is hypocritical?
.

"It isn't necessary to imagine the world ending in fire or ice.
There are two other possibilities: one is paperwork, and the other is nostalgia."

Frank Zappa

"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
.

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Re: The Great Climate Debate: Potholer vs Steve Crowder.

Post by Animavore » Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:12 pm

mistermack wrote:That video is aimed at morons. Full of false choices.
I told you you have no filter.
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*cough* Excuse me.

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mistermack
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Re: The Great Climate Debate: Potholer vs Steve Crowder.

Post by mistermack » Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:14 pm

I think you've proved my point.

And Brian, I can't make it any clearer than my last reply. If you don't get what I was saying, you never will.
Last edited by mistermack on Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Great Climate Debate: Potholer vs Steve Crowder.

Post by Animavore » Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:15 pm

mistermack wrote:I think you've proved my point.
What fucking point?

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Re: The Great Climate Debate: Potholer vs Steve Crowder.

Post by Animavore » Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:20 pm

mistermack wrote:
And Brian, I can't make it any clearer than my last reply. If you don't get what I was saying, you never will.
You didn't make it clear. You don't even make sense. You don't seem to even understand what hypocrisy is.
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Re: The Great Climate Debate: Potholer vs Steve Crowder.

Post by Brian Peacock » Sat Sep 02, 2017 10:20 pm

mistermack wrote:And Brian, I can't make it any clearer than my last reply. If you don't get what I was saying, you never will.
You point wasn't unclear - you think it's hypocritical to call Crowder out for lying when climate change deniers call out Gore on his carbon footprint and someone says that this is irrelevant - it was just invalid in as much as it didn't address the point being made. There is no equivalence between getting science wrong, and revising it in light of the accumulated evidences, or politically advocating action on climate change while owning more than one house, and out-and-out lying about what scientists have published and are publishing.

The point you don't seem to want to touch on though is Crowder's misrepresentation of, and out-and-out lying about, the science. It's far easier to bog this debate down in conflicts over who is morally justified to be the most outraged than to actually address the science, and yet unfortunately this is where we so often end up.
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: The Great Climate Debate: Potholer vs Steve Crowder.

Post by Animavore » Sat Sep 02, 2017 10:54 pm

Heh. This just happened to appear in my YouTube field about early models and predictions. Remember the ones MM said -
mistermack wrote:...have all been proved disastrously wrong.
And it features Richard Muller, the former climate sceptic who MM claims are being frozen out -
mistermack wrote:If it ever allows scepticism back in.


I fully expect MM to dismiss this. That's if he even watches it. Will probably turn it off after a couple of seconds as soon as someone says something he doesn't agree with.
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Re: The Great Climate Debate: Potholer vs Steve Crowder.

Post by mistermack » Sun Sep 03, 2017 12:50 am

There were myriads of models and people making predictions going back to before the nineties.
Almost every possible prediction it was possible to make.
Except one. Nobody predicted a nearly 20 year halt to warming. You can go back and look as hard as you like. They were all predicting warming. Halfway through the pause, they were even saying that it would only be significant if it carried on for another two years. :funny:
That was soon abandoned, as two years came and went.
That's what I mean when I say that nobody predicted the climate correctly. What they have had to do, is go back, and fiddle the figures, and the way the data is arranged. So now, suddenly, after all the anguish over why it stopped warming, they have the answer. Just say that it didn't. :D
If the facts don't match the story, just change the facts. :prof:

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Re: The Great Climate Debate: Potholer vs Steve Crowder.

Post by Animavore » Sun Sep 03, 2017 3:08 am

There is no 20 year halt. Why are you lying, MM?
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Re: The Great Climate Debate: Potholer vs Steve Crowder.

Post by Brian Peacock » Sun Sep 03, 2017 4:00 am

We've dealt with this before, but those who subscribe to the global climate science conspiracy theory can ignore the data simply by declaring it bankrupt from the off.
The line plot below shows yearly temperature anomalies from 1880 to 2014 as recorded by NASA, NOAA, the Japan Meteorological Agency, and the Met Office Hadley Centre (United Kingdom). Though there are minor variations from year to year, all four records show peaks and valleys in sync with each other. All show rapid warming in the past few decades, and all show the last decade as the warmest.

Image

https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Featu ... altemp.php
The disingenuous agent picks, say, the 1994 peak and says that the temperatures in the following years actually fell - therefore climate science and climate scientists are wrong. In this they necessarily ignore the trend, and when that it pointed to them they flip the global climate science conspiracy theory card over again to further avoid dealing with the documented historical data.

Now, let's be frank here. The reason seemingly rational people invoke the necessity of a global climate science conspiracy theory, and do so while they're quite happy to accept, rely on, endorse and trust the science in other areas of human endeavour, is because facing up to the consequences for, and impact on, the global climate of past human activity brings with it unavoidable pressures to take action now and for the future - particular a pressure to limit as much as possible the dispersal of human-generated greenhousing elements into the atmosphere. Currently, the denier's response to the growing academic, political, and social pressure to take steps now is to cast it as an undue impingement on individual freedom and liberty and, more importantly, as an undue restriction on the freedom and liberty of the free market economic systems on which we all rely.

That is changing, and will continue to change over time, and perhaps at a faster rate than the fossil fuel lobby might hope or plan for, but when -- as with tobacco -- the social and political pressure grows to a point where the science can no longer be rationally denied, to the point where inaction is simply no longer acceptable to anyone, the moral arguments against action now will appear for what they really are: lies in the service of cowardice in the service of a corporate wet-dream of consequence free profiteering. Whether the science deniers or the hydrocarbon industry realise it, by opposing action now they are actually sowing the seeds of their own future irrelevance.
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There are two other possibilities: one is paperwork, and the other is nostalgia."

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"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: The Great Climate Debate: Potholer vs Steve Crowder.

Post by Animavore » Sun Sep 03, 2017 4:12 am

This shows best how deniers cherry pick.




Of course there are actually two acts of cherry picking going on here, as surface temperature taken on its own doesn't tell the whole story.

Image

Image
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Re: The Great Climate Debate: Potholer vs Steve Crowder.

Post by Hermit » Sun Sep 03, 2017 4:17 am

Brian Peacock wrote:We've dealt with this before, but those who subscribe to the global climate science conspiracy theory can ignore the data simply by declaring it bankrupt from the off.
The line plot below shows yearly temperature anomalies from 1880 to 2014 as recorded by NASA, NOAA, the Japan Meteorological Agency, and the Met Office Hadley Centre (United Kingdom). Though there are minor variations from year to year, all four records show peaks and valleys in sync with each other. All show rapid warming in the past few decades, and all show the last decade as the warmest.

Image

https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Featu ... altemp.php
The disingenuous agent picks, say, the 1994 peak and says that the temperatures in the following years actually fell - therefore climate science and climate scientists are wrong. In this they necessarily ignore the trend, and when that it pointed to them they flip the global climate science conspiracy theory card over again to further avoid dealing with the documented historical data.

Now, let's be frank here. The reason seemingly rational people invoke the necessity of a global climate science conspiracy theory, and do so while they're quite happy to accept, rely on, endorse and trust the science in other areas of human endeavour, is because facing up to the consequences for, and impact on, the global climate of past human activity brings with it unavoidable pressures to take action now and for the future - particular a pressure to limit as much as possible the dispersal of human-generated greenhousing elements into the atmosphere. Currently, the growing academic, political, and social pressure to take steps now to limit the future consequences of dumping unprecedented amounts of greenhousing elements into the atmosphere is to cast it as an undue impingement on individual freedom and liberty and, more importantly, as an undue restriction on the freedom and liberty of the free market economic systems on which we all rely.

That is changing, and will continue to change over time, and perhaps at a faster rate than the fossil fuel lobby might hope or plan for, but when -- as with tobacco -- the social and political pressure grows to a point where the science can no longer be rationally denied, to the point where inaction is simply no longer acceptable to anyone, the moral arguments against action now will appear for what they really are: lies in the service of cowardice in the service of a corporate wet-dream of consequence free profiteering. Whether the science deniers or the hydrocarbon industry realise it, by opposing action now they are actually sowing the seeds of their own future irrelevance.
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Re: The Great Climate Debate: Potholer vs Steve Crowder.

Post by mistermack » Sun Sep 03, 2017 5:00 pm

Did you know that Al Gore charges over $300,000 dollars for a speaking engagement? And will need to see the questions and approve them? And excludes anyone who might prove difficult?

There is huge money in the global warming game that you people could only dream of.
And that porky fat lying pig hasn't got a clue about science. But he knows how to extract money, and bullshit the naive morons who fall for that shit.
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Re: The Great Climate Debate: Potholer vs Steve Crowder.

Post by Animavore » Sun Sep 03, 2017 7:58 pm

Did you know an attacking Al Gore to throw doubt on the veracity on climate science is a red herring?
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Re: The Great Climate Debate: Potholer vs Steve Crowder.

Post by Animavore » Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:17 pm

mistermack wrote:
It would be truly funny, if [spending money on green tech and research] it wasn't costing lives, by wasting money on futile gestures. Money that could buy healthcare for the poor.
This is the cost of inaction. A clear trend to more frequent and expensive natural disasters.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/201 ... close.html

The poor will be most affected by this.
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