Science news of the day thread.

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Re: Science news of the day thread.

Post by macdoc » Sun Dec 18, 2022 7:42 am

The dark horse gallops forward
Image
H3 debuts all-in-one hydrogen powertrain pods for long-range flight

By Loz Blain
December 14, 2022
https://newatlas.com/drones/h3-hydrogen-propulsion/
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Re: Science news of the day thread.

Post by Brian Peacock » Sun Dec 18, 2022 8:33 am

You can see the problems that have to be resolved expressed in the design: about 1.66 more volume has to be given over to the heavier liquid H fuel than for kerosene - longer wings increase storage and reduce induced drag but also increase weight, which means you need more lift, which means bigger wings or larger/more turbines, which means more weight, etc etc. For planes of equivalent weights you have to give over about 2/3 of internal volume for H for an equivalent range, which means reducing passenger/hold volume, which increases costs. This is without talking about the problems of liquid H production and infrastructure.

The hard limits of physics are diffuclt to surmount by efficiencies in engine and material design alone, and so we need a deep thunk about the sector as a whole if we're really serious about reducing the massive contribution air transport makes to global heating.

The engineering is very cool though.
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Science news of the day thread.

Post by macdoc » Sun Dec 18, 2022 10:56 am

Massive ??? Hyperbole doesn't help.
The global aviation industry produces around 2.1% of all human-induced carbon dioxide (CO2) emissions. Aviation is responsible for 12% of CO2 emissions from all transports sources, compared to 74% from road transport.
vs
How Much Do Our Wardrobes Cost to the Environment? https://www.worldbank.org › feature › 2019/09/23 › co...
23 Sept 2019 — The fashion industry is responsible for 10 % of annual global carbon emissions, more than all international flights and maritime shipping
Let's keep some perspective.
A full 787 produces less CO2 per passenger mile than a fully occupied Prius.
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Re: Science news of the day thread.

Post by Brian Peacock » Sun Dec 18, 2022 3:36 pm

Bite me. Then look at particulates and aerosols. We need to rapidly implement solutions with the options we have available right now. Promises of future tech that will allow everything to be basically the same as it is today, just cleaner, are greenwashed fantasy and corporate propaganda. I'm neither a pessimist, nor a Luddite. I'm just someone who understands that we need to implement real, workable solutions today so we can actually develop that kind of cool stuff tomorrow. The age of transportation as we've understood it for the last 100 years is over.

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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Science news of the day thread.

Post by macdoc » Sun Dec 18, 2022 4:15 pm

So what are your "real workable solutions"?

Still eating meat?

:pop:

New Zealand just commited to 25 electric regional aircraft ....seems that's a solution. :biggrin:
Air New Zealand has revealed what the future of flying could look like around the regions, unveiling four different zero-emissions planes it is looking to buy.

The national carrier wants its first zero-emission flight to take off in 2026 and has narrowed down a list of finalists – sealing an agreement with each company.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/news/300 ... ion-planes
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Re: Science news of the day thread.

Post by Brian Peacock » Sun Dec 18, 2022 6:49 pm

macdoc wrote:So what are your "real workable solutions"?

Still eating meat?
Lol. Liquid H/Electric air travel is not a solution to climate change. I can no more solve climate change than Lockhead Martin or Boeing, but adopting a similar approach to fossil fuel companies as we did to tobacco firms 20 years ago would be a start. On the substantive issues I'll simply direct you to the IPCC 2022 mitigation report for a full, data-driven explanation of the problem, and to the UNFCCC for an appraisal of the kind of steps and measures governments need to take to mitigate and adapt to global heating, and ultimately to reduce average global temperatures. Both are easily searchable.

Individualising the issue doesn't help either, but for your information I've been a vegetarian for 40 years and a vegan for the last 2 years.
macdoc wrote: New Zealand just commited to 25 electric regional aircraft ....seems that's a solution. Image
Air New Zealand has revealed what the future of flying could look like around the regions, unveiling four different zero-emissions planes it is looking to buy.

The national carrier wants its first zero-emission flight to take off in 2026 and has narrowed down a list of finalists – sealing an agreement with each company.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/travel/news/300 ... ion-planes
That's a positive move, but it has to be seen within the context of NZ excluding their agricultural sector from their carbon assessment and NDCs under the Paris Agreement.
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Science news of the day thread.

Post by rainbow » Sun Dec 18, 2022 6:52 pm

Brian Peacock wrote:
Sun Dec 18, 2022 8:33 am
You can see the problems that have to be resolved expressed in the design: about 1.66 more volume has to be given over to the heavier liquid H fuel than for kerosene - longer wings increase storage and reduce induced drag but also increase weight, which means you need more lift, which means bigger wings or larger/more turbines, which means more weight, etc etc. For planes of equivalent weights you have to give over about 2/3 of internal volume for H for an equivalent range, which means reducing passenger/hold volume, which increases costs. This is without talking about the problems of liquid H production and infrastructure.

The hard limits of physics are diffuclt to surmount by efficiencies in engine and material design alone, and so we need a deep thunk about the sector as a whole if we're really serious about reducing the massive contribution air transport makes to global heating.

The engineering is very cool though.
Biodiesel is a better fuel.
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Re: Science news of the day thread.

Post by Brian Peacock » Sun Dec 18, 2022 6:56 pm

Perhaps, but only effective if other carbon reduction measure are in place.
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Science news of the day thread.

Post by rainbow » Sun Dec 18, 2022 6:59 pm

I call bullshit - Alfred E Einstein
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Re: Science news of the day thread.

Post by Svartalf » Sun Dec 18, 2022 7:02 pm

rainbow wrote:
Sun Dec 18, 2022 6:52 pm
Brian Peacock wrote:
Sun Dec 18, 2022 8:33 am
You can see the problems that have to be resolved expressed in the design: about 1.66 more volume has to be given over to the heavier liquid H fuel than for kerosene - longer wings increase storage and reduce induced drag but also increase weight, which means you need more lift, which means bigger wings or larger/more turbines, which means more weight, etc etc. For planes of equivalent weights you have to give over about 2/3 of internal volume for H for an equivalent range, which means reducing passenger/hold volume, which increases costs. This is without talking about the problems of liquid H production and infrastructure.

The hard limits of physics are diffuclt to surmount by efficiencies in engine and material design alone, and so we need a deep thunk about the sector as a whole if we're really serious about reducing the massive contribution air transport makes to global heating.

The engineering is very cool though.
Biodiesel is a better fuel.
it ain't... not from a carbon print pov, of course, it's renewable, but it still pours tons of shit in the environment.
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Re: Science news of the day thread.

Post by Svartalf » Sun Dec 18, 2022 7:03 pm

AMD from gold mines... what do they say about the mercury?
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Re: Science news of the day thread.

Post by aufbahrung » Sun Dec 18, 2022 7:05 pm

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-63603489

Canada's polar-bear capital Churchill warms too fast for bears
By Victoria Gill
Science correspondent, BBC News

"The bears know the ice will be back soon - they're waiting," says Alysa McCall, from Polar Bears International (PBI)

(continued
WeAreAStableCountry

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Re: Science news of the day thread.

Post by rainbow » Sun Dec 18, 2022 7:10 pm

Svartalf wrote:
Sun Dec 18, 2022 7:03 pm
AMD from gold mines... what do they say about the mercury?
Mercury is a big problem, but can also be taken up with ion exchangers.
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Re: Science news of the day thread.

Post by Svartalf » Sun Dec 18, 2022 7:13 pm

OK, that's good news then
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Re: Science news of the day thread.

Post by rainbow » Sun Dec 18, 2022 7:27 pm

Svartalf wrote:
Sun Dec 18, 2022 7:02 pm
rainbow wrote:
Sun Dec 18, 2022 6:52 pm
Brian Peacock wrote:
Sun Dec 18, 2022 8:33 am
You can see the problems that have to be resolved expressed in the design: about 1.66 more volume has to be given over to the heavier liquid H fuel than for kerosene - longer wings increase storage and reduce induced drag but also increase weight, which means you need more lift, which means bigger wings or larger/more turbines, which means more weight, etc etc. For planes of equivalent weights you have to give over about 2/3 of internal volume for H for an equivalent range, which means reducing passenger/hold volume, which increases costs. This is without talking about the problems of liquid H production and infrastructure.

The hard limits of physics are diffuclt to surmount by efficiencies in engine and material design alone, and so we need a deep thunk about the sector as a whole if we're really serious about reducing the massive contribution air transport makes to global heating.

The engineering is very cool though.
Biodiesel is a better fuel.
it ain't... not from a carbon print pov, of course, it's renewable, but it still pours tons of shit in the environment.
:prof: Every molecule of CO2 given up by burning biodiesel comes from CO2 via photosynthesis :prof:
I call bullshit - Alfred E Einstein
BArF−4

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