Mental illness

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floppit
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Re: Mental illness

Post by floppit » Thu May 13, 2010 8:32 am

Long posts aside....

As I am a materialist as opposed to the belief we have a mystical soul at the root of our personhood, as I believe my 'self' to have an organic base, I find it implausible in the extreme to also believe that the organic base cannot malfunction by material means. All our bodily organs demonstrate what we refer to as 'sickness', both long and short term, all of which have at some level a material cause. The brain is reliant on chemicals and electrical impulses, therefore equally it would be implausible to see these as flawless or uninfluencable (sp?) by treatment.

Whether our treatments are perfectly refined is not really worthy of debate, of course they are not, science is fluid in that sense. Whether the approach to the mind in the medical world is rigorous enough to be called science is something that needs to be evaluated on each paper individually, again, as with all science.

In short I think the all or nothing approach to debating mental illness is rarely worth bothering with. I have bothered with it too often in the past!
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Re: Mental illness

Post by SpeedOfSound » Thu May 13, 2010 2:22 pm

I had a friend who legitimately suffered from depression. He is the only one I have ever met and it was very obvious that he needed to be on medication. When I meet an addict that tells me he is has a 'dual diagnosis' of alcoholism and depression or bipolar disorder I have no idea whether he really does need meds or whether some general practitioner sold him a bill of goods. Most addicts are depressed or manic but it's caused by abusing drugs not by their genetics.

I think this shit should be highly regulated. Only prescribed after a comprehensive diagnosis by a real psychiatrist.
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Re: Mental illness

Post by Cunt » Thu May 13, 2010 5:41 pm

ficklefiend wrote:When they say an imbalance I doubt they have come to this conclusion directly, e.g- as you suggest, cutting out a bit of the brain and testing how much of one thing or another is in it. From what I know, which isn't much, I don't think that wouldn't reflect truly the way the brain works.

Perhaps it is more likely that we have certain drugs that we think act in certain ways, we give them to certain people who have certain characteristics, and we find they react to these in certain ways.

Take notes and repeat.

Having had to sit down and go through pages and pages of pharmacology in the past few years, I have found it quite alarming how many drugs for which we have only a very vague idea of how they work or no idea at all.
The scariest issue for me is seeing folks react poorly to a drug treatment (for MONTHS!), then, based on that period, be prescribed another cocktail. To me, it would seem sensible to start again at zero. I guess it looks like overprescribing to me.
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Mr Jobby wrote:
Cunt wrote:
I understand that in your particular case you saw a positive outcome, but to put it another way, how could we know what outcome would have been without those drugs?
So if somebody is admitted with extreme mania or delusions, they have to take some kind of action to prevent the patient harming themselves or somebody else.
Do they really? Have you ever compared the 'no intervention' group to the 'drug intervention' group?
I think there have been people who have been medicated very carefully, and killed someone anyway (maybe themselves) and people who have been ignored as far as medication goes, and recovered through other means. (maybe just time, maybe family support)
Mr Jobby wrote: Very often a drug is the only thing thats going to do that within the resources available to them.
That is a common view...just trying to learn if it is the right one.

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SpeedOfSound wrote: Only prescribed after a comprehensive diagnosis by a real psychiatrist.
What the fuck does THAT mean? Real? I live in a community where psychiatrists come to serve for a few months, then leave while another replaces them. I have seen them read a chart, adjust a prescription and move on to the next (complete stranger) patient inside of 15 minutes. They must be absolutely fucking brilliant to make their decisions so quickly.

Or maybe something else. Maybe they just want to get done here so they can leave. There has been a psychiatrist in town for three months now. That's a long time.

The priests stay much longer. So do the other woo-peddlers. There is a yoga studio which offers someone I know 'Reiki Healing' and has been more consistent with their 'care' than the psychiatrists have been. Holy fucking shit.

At this point (and for years) I would not allow medical intervention on myself by a psychiatrist. End of story. They might be able to change my mind, but when they use 'shorthand' like 'there is a chemical imbalance in your brain' and can't back it up with facts, they lose any respect they might have had.

What good is the mental health system if most (sane?) people want NOTHING at all to do with it?
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Re: Mental illness

Post by SpeedOfSound » Thu May 13, 2010 7:01 pm

Cunt wrote:
SpeedOfSound wrote: Only prescribed after a comprehensive diagnosis by a real psychiatrist.
What the fuck does THAT mean? Real? I live in a community where psychiatrists come to serve for a few months, then leave while another replaces them. I have seen them read a chart, adjust a prescription and move on to the next (complete stranger) patient inside of 15 minutes. They must be absolutely fucking brilliant to make their decisions so quickly.
Good point. Maybe if a person is committed to a hospital for the kind of reason one gets committed THEN it might be a good idea to prescribe. But only after a group review.

I'm just saying the bar should be raised way above the average joe who's feeling a little depressed today.

Two rules I would love to see are

1. If there is brain damage (stroke, dementia etc) then no drugs.

2. If they are substance abusers then no drugs.

Both could be overridden by an act of of or a board of professionals in a hospital. Maybe.
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Re: Mental illness

Post by Brain Man » Thu May 13, 2010 7:32 pm

Cunt wrote: Do they really? Have you ever compared the 'no intervention' group to the 'drug intervention' group?
In the 70's schizophrenics were allowed to recover by giving them isolated living spaces where they could sort themselves out and do what they wished within their own time and pace. famous Psychologist did that RD Lang.

Problem is that is just too expensive on resources for most common psychiatric facilities. They have to restrain and control patients somehow, as a lot of them are brought in for forensic reasons. A lot of psychiatric facilities are just caring extensions of the prison system and structured as such.
I think there have been people who have been medicated very carefully, and killed someone anyway (maybe themselves) and people who have been ignored as far as medication goes, and recovered through other means. (maybe just time, maybe family support)
There are bound to be casualties no matter how good the course of treatment, as you basically have people who have spun out of control, manic, deluded etc...and then had to be admitted. The system arose because of the harm that these conditions inflict on society and family when no treatment is given. Its got a long way to go, but you cant say for the most part the people who work in it don't care, or arent trying to solve or manage these problems within their means.

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Re: Mental illness

Post by Cunt » Thu May 13, 2010 9:15 pm

Mr Jobby wrote:
Cunt wrote: Do they really? Have you ever compared the 'no intervention' group to the 'drug intervention' group?
In the 70's schizophrenics were allowed to recover by giving them isolated living spaces where they could sort themselves out and do what they wished within their own time and pace. famous Psychologist did that RD Lang.

Problem is that is just too expensive on resources for most common psychiatric facilities. They have to restrain and control patients somehow, as a lot of them are brought in for forensic reasons. A lot of psychiatric facilities are just caring extensions of the prison system and structured as such.
I think there have been people who have been medicated very carefully, and killed someone anyway (maybe themselves) and people who have been ignored as far as medication goes, and recovered through other means. (maybe just time, maybe family support)
There are bound to be casualties no matter how good the course of treatment, as you basically have people who have spun out of control, manic, deluded etc...and then had to be admitted. The system arose because of the harm that these conditions inflict on society and family when no treatment is given. Its got a long way to go, but you cant say for the most part the people who work in it don't care, or arent trying to solve or manage these problems within their means.
For an awfully long time the solution has been isolating them along with retards and cripples in institutions. This means that:
a) the crazy people don't get as much experience living in the 'normal' world as they might have, thus lacking some social (and other!) skills, and
b) the normal people don't get as much experience living in the real world (the one with ALL kinds of people in it) as they might have.

I think the meds are further isolating them. Would you cure Eeyore?

Would you 'cure' DaVinci? (there may have been a bit of self-harm there)
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Joe wrote:
Wed Nov 29, 2023 1:22 pm
he doesn't communicate

The 'Walsh Question' 'What Is A Woman?' I'll put an answer here when someone posts one that is clear and comprehensible, by apostates to the Faith.

Update: I've been offered one!
rainbow wrote:
Mon Nov 06, 2023 9:23 pm
It is actually quite easy. A woman has at least one X chromosome.
Strong ideas don't require censorship to survive. Weak ideas cannot survive without it.

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Re: Mental illness

Post by Brain Man » Thu May 13, 2010 10:10 pm

Cunt wrote:
Mr Jobby wrote:
Cunt wrote: Do they really? Have you ever compared the 'no intervention' group to the 'drug intervention' group?
In the 70's schizophrenics were allowed to recover by giving them isolated living spaces where they could sort themselves out and do what they wished within their own time and pace. famous Psychologist did that RD Lang.

Problem is that is just too expensive on resources for most common psychiatric facilities. They have to restrain and control patients somehow, as a lot of them are brought in for forensic reasons. A lot of psychiatric facilities are just caring extensions of the prison system and structured as such.
I think there have been people who have been medicated very carefully, and killed someone anyway (maybe themselves) and people who have been ignored as far as medication goes, and recovered through other means. (maybe just time, maybe family support)
There are bound to be casualties no matter how good the course of treatment, as you basically have people who have spun out of control, manic, deluded etc...and then had to be admitted. The system arose because of the harm that these conditions inflict on society and family when no treatment is given. Its got a long way to go, but you cant say for the most part the people who work in it don't care, or arent trying to solve or manage these problems within their means.
For an awfully long time the solution has been isolating them along with retards and cripples in institutions. This means that:
a) the crazy people don't get as much experience living in the 'normal' world as they might have, thus lacking some social (and other!) skills, and
b) the normal people don't get as much experience living in the real world (the one with ALL kinds of people in it) as they might have.

I think the meds are further isolating them. Would you cure Eeyore?

Would you 'cure' DaVinci? (there may have been a bit of self-harm there)
The whole system arose in the first place because "normal" people couldn't deal with them and don't want to. That is the cost/benefit ratio becomes too high for the average person/family/local community and had to be taken care of by a higher level pooled resources system. Obviously somebody with schizophrenia is better cared for by their family without medications, if thats possible.

BTW..Im well aware that the genes for schizoid/mania/autism spectrum etc, are those for science/creativity gone wrong for whatever reason, environmental toxin, too much stress etc..

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Re: Mental illness

Post by orpheus » Thu May 13, 2010 11:01 pm

Mr Jobby wrote:
Cunt wrote:
Mr Jobby wrote:
Cunt wrote: Do they really? Have you ever compared the 'no intervention' group to the 'drug intervention' group?
In the 70's schizophrenics were allowed to recover by giving them isolated living spaces where they could sort themselves out and do what they wished within their own time and pace. famous Psychologist did that RD Lang.

Problem is that is just too expensive on resources for most common psychiatric facilities. They have to restrain and control patients somehow, as a lot of them are brought in for forensic reasons. A lot of psychiatric facilities are just caring extensions of the prison system and structured as such.
I think there have been people who have been medicated very carefully, and killed someone anyway (maybe themselves) and people who have been ignored as far as medication goes, and recovered through other means. (maybe just time, maybe family support)
There are bound to be casualties no matter how good the course of treatment, as you basically have people who have spun out of control, manic, deluded etc...and then had to be admitted. The system arose because of the harm that these conditions inflict on society and family when no treatment is given. Its got a long way to go, but you cant say for the most part the people who work in it don't care, or arent trying to solve or manage these problems within their means.
For an awfully long time the solution has been isolating them along with retards and cripples in institutions. This means that:
a) the crazy people don't get as much experience living in the 'normal' world as they might have, thus lacking some social (and other!) skills, and
b) the normal people don't get as much experience living in the real world (the one with ALL kinds of people in it) as they might have.

I think the meds are further isolating them. Would you cure Eeyore?

Would you 'cure' DaVinci? (there may have been a bit of self-harm there)
The whole system arose in the first place because "normal" people couldn't deal with them and don't want to. That is the cost/benefit ratio becomes too high for the average person/family/local community and had to be taken care of by a higher level pooled resources system. Obviously somebody with schizophrenia is better cared for by their family without medications, if thats possible.
Why is that obvious?
I think that language has a lot to do with interfering in our relationship to direct experience. A simple thing like metaphor will allows you to go to a place and say 'this is like that'. Well, this isn't like that. This is like this.

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Re: Mental illness

Post by Brain Man » Fri May 14, 2010 1:04 am

orpheus wrote:
Mr Jobby wrote:
Cunt wrote:
Mr Jobby wrote:
Cunt wrote: Do they really? Have you ever compared the 'no intervention' group to the 'drug intervention' group?
In the 70's schizophrenics were allowed to recover by giving them isolated living spaces where they could sort themselves out and do what they wished within their own time and pace. famous Psychologist did that RD Lang.

Problem is that is just too expensive on resources for most common psychiatric facilities. They have to restrain and control patients somehow, as a lot of them are brought in for forensic reasons. A lot of psychiatric facilities are just caring extensions of the prison system and structured as such.
I think there have been people who have been medicated very carefully, and killed someone anyway (maybe themselves) and people who have been ignored as far as medication goes, and recovered through other means. (maybe just time, maybe family support)
There are bound to be casualties no matter how good the course of treatment, as you basically have people who have spun out of control, manic, deluded etc...and then had to be admitted. The system arose because of the harm that these conditions inflict on society and family when no treatment is given. Its got a long way to go, but you cant say for the most part the people who work in it don't care, or arent trying to solve or manage these problems within their means.
For an awfully long time the solution has been isolating them along with retards and cripples in institutions. This means that:
a) the crazy people don't get as much experience living in the 'normal' world as they might have, thus lacking some social (and other!) skills, and
b) the normal people don't get as much experience living in the real world (the one with ALL kinds of people in it) as they might have.

I think the meds are further isolating them. Would you cure Eeyore?

Would you 'cure' DaVinci? (there may have been a bit of self-harm there)
The whole system arose in the first place because "normal" people couldn't deal with them and don't want to. That is the cost/benefit ratio becomes too high for the average person/family/local community and had to be taken care of by a higher level pooled resources system. Obviously somebody with schizophrenia is better cared for by their family without medications, if thats possible.
Why is that obvious?
The average family is going to give a **** more an a long term consistent basis than the average institution. Long term Consistency is very important for people on the delusional spectrum.

If its possible, meaning if the family finds it has the resources and capability to do so and the patient is one who is not too far gone or out of control without the medications.

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Re: Mental illness

Post by orpheus » Fri May 14, 2010 2:29 am

I guess what's not so obvious to me is why it's better without medications than with.
I think that language has a lot to do with interfering in our relationship to direct experience. A simple thing like metaphor will allows you to go to a place and say 'this is like that'. Well, this isn't like that. This is like this.

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Re: Mental illness

Post by Feck » Fri May 14, 2010 3:42 am

I would agree that Medication is often prescribed instead of , rather than with other therapy but medication does treat some conditions very well .
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Re: Mental illness

Post by Brain Man » Fri May 14, 2010 11:59 am

orpheus wrote:I guess what's not so obvious to me is why it's better without medications than with.
If possible its definetely better without medications.

Aside from the side effects which can sometimes be life threatening, the neuroleptics for schizophrenia contribute to the damage caused to cortical grey matter by the condition itself, even though they calm down the secondary symptoms (hallucinations, paranioa) caused by high dopamine.

Drugs for mood spectrum disorders tend to prolong an illness if the patient had been able to resolve it in the short term without drugs. Many enzymatic pathways with their associated circuits in the brain are easily broken and often do not recover when hammered with drugs, although we are all different in our robustness, these differences are only just now being addressed.

The human brain is simply not that robust physically in comparison to other mammals. Our accelerated brain growth makes us far more sensitive to disorders, siezures and recovery from blow to the head than other mammals. Probably due the higher densities of matter, and increased variety of neuronal types and processes operating within the same given space.

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Re: Mental illness

Post by Feck » Fri May 14, 2010 12:18 pm

When I was in mental hospital I heard a conversation between a patient and a nurse (one of the few that cared )

She asked David if since they had reduced his dosage had his symptoms reappeared?

David said that yes the people were back in his head and they were saying the same things .

Oh :cry: said the nurse that's not good, so they are still telling you to kill yourself ?

Yes ,David replied but At least they are not screaming any more .



Now My question to anyone who says that meds are not one of a range of treatments used is : How would you like 4 people screaming in your head 24/7 that you are a worthless shit and everybody would be happier if you killed yourself ?
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Re: Mental illness

Post by anna09 » Fri May 14, 2010 1:48 pm

Mental illnesses do have a physical origin either chemically or structurally and of course a genetic predisposition. Take schizophrenia for example, there are several different types of schizophrenia with different origins. Acute schizophrenia is chemically based and is due to excessive dopamine activity. This type is more responsive neuroleptics unlike Chronic Schizophrenia that arises from structural abnormalities in the brain. (less than average brain weight, enlarged ventricles, reduction of the number of neurons in prefrontal cortex etc.) Some people even have a combination of neurotransmitter issues AND brain abnormalities. There is no cure-all pill for mental illnesses. Some people simply do not respond to certain (if any) medications but that doesn't mean the medication itself is "bullshit". Based on what I've been taught, the common view is that if medication is necessary then therapy is a must. Yes, I am aware there are some psychologists and psychiatrists that don't follow this but don't disregard the whole field becuase a few people are assholes.
Mr Jobby wrote:If possible its definetely better without medications.
Tell that to somebody who suffers from Bipolar Disorder. Manic episodes can only be controlled with medication.

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Re: Mental illness

Post by owtth » Fri May 14, 2010 2:00 pm

There's a wonderful book called Eden Express by Mark Vonnegut (son of) which describes his own experiences with schizophrenia.

there's a lengthy preview here.
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