Global Climate Change Science News

[piscator]

Tax breaks are subsidies.

[pErvinalia]

Not in this case as it is a tax on PUBLIC road use. Non public road users pay the tax when they purchase fuel and get a rebate on some of that tax when they provide evidence of their non-public road use.

[piscator]

Then it's not a tax break as much as the government half-inching a quarter point off the float.

[pErvinalia]

It's simply a tax on road use using the most convenient method of measuring that - fuel use. It's indirect, so will of course require some adjustments after the fact.

[piscator]

Red diesel would be simpler and less prone to abuse. In the US and UK, off-road diesel, like for mining equipment and boats and heating oil, is dyed red and federal and state road taxes are not assessed by the seller. Automotive fuel, on the other hand, is dyed green or blue and taxes are assessed at sale.

[pErvinalia]

That would definitely be simpler but would allow rorting. Nothing stopping them using it on public roads surrounding the farm/mine etc without paying the tax.

[piscator]

That would definitely be simpler but would allow rorting. Nothing stopping them using it on public roads surrounding the farm/mine etc without paying the tax.

The Federal and State laws and penalties against it make it not worthwhile. Canada, for instance, has maximum fines up to $1,000,000 + 2 years imprisonment for violation of the Fuel Tax Act, but they usually start at 13 times the tax, payable to both provincial and federal, for whatever the vehicle's maximum capacity, + $440.

So if you get popped running red fuel in a Ford pickup in BC, it's 13 x $0.04/L x 150L ($78) payable to the federal government + 13 x $0.2139 x 150 ($417.11) payable to the provincial government + $440 to the Province = $935.11 + whatever the federal government might want to fine you when they finally catch word of your attempt to save $45 in fuel excise taxes. That's for a first offense. x5 for the second. Third offense sets you up for the Big $$. This is enough to cow most farmers and truckers into running road fuel in their trucks. And if it didn't, it would be a profit center for government unto itself.
Moreover, it takes a minimum of 4-5 tanks of green diesel and a couple oil changes and new fuel filters to make the fluorescent red dye undetectable to the most cursory inspection, so you can stand tall for it months after the fact. It's just not worth it.

[Seth]

That would definitely be simpler but would allow rorting. Nothing stopping them using it on public roads surrounding the farm/mine etc without paying the tax.

We do it, and there's a law allowing the DOT to dip-inspect vehicles at ports of entry (and at random) and if you get caught with red fuel in your on-road vehicle they fuck you up the ass with fines.

I have two fuel tanks in my Hummer. One is for on-road (taxed) diesel and the other one is for off-road (non-taxed) diesel for when I go off-roading or use it on the ranch.

The fact that they can't know which tank I have switched on at any given time is not my problem, it's theirs.

[JimC]

Speaking of diesel, it's now nice and cheap, and my new automatic Forester seems to be using only 0.1 litre per 100 km more than my old manual one, so I'm happy...

It is very relaxing not to have to change gears anymore...

[mistermack]

That would definitely be simpler but would allow rorting. Nothing stopping them using it on public roads surrounding the farm/mine etc without paying the tax.

We do it, and there's a law allowing the DOT to dip-inspect vehicles at ports of entry (and at random) and if you get caught with red fuel in your on-road vehicle they fuck you up the ass with fines.

I have two fuel tanks in my Hummer. One is for on-road (taxed) diesel and the other one is for off-road (non-taxed) diesel for when I go off-roading or use it on the ranch.

The fact that they can't know which tank I have switched on at any given time is not my problem, it's theirs.

You wanna make sure that you pay cash for your red diesel, or they could prove road use via the quantities that you've been buying.
The random testing that they do in this country involves taking samples at the injectors.
That usually means that if someone has a switching arrangement, the legal diesel doesn't have time to feed through to the injectors. They stop you and make you switch off your engine.

Don't know how the law in this country treats that sort of system.
The travelling people here are notorious for using red diesel, and if it was as simple as having two tanks, they would be using that all the time.

I remember going to a horse fair in Stow-on-the-Wold, and the testers were there testing every diesel vehicle. The horse fairs are a magnet for travellers, so they must have done well that day.

[Forty Two]

Tax breaks are subsidies.

Only if they are specific to an industry, which they are not in the case of the oil companies.

[Seth]

That would definitely be simpler but would allow rorting. Nothing stopping them using it on public roads surrounding the farm/mine etc without paying the tax.

We do it, and there's a law allowing the DOT to dip-inspect vehicles at ports of entry (and at random) and if you get caught with red fuel in your on-road vehicle they fuck you up the ass with fines.

I have two fuel tanks in my Hummer. One is for on-road (taxed) diesel and the other one is for off-road (non-taxed) diesel for when I go off-roading or use it on the ranch.

The fact that they can't know which tank I have switched on at any given time is not my problem, it's theirs.

You wanna make sure that you pay cash for your red diesel, or they could prove road use via the quantities that you've been buying.

Not without proof of how much time I spend driving off road or putting it in my tractor. You see, the auxiliary tank has a pump tap that I use to fuel farm equipment, just like the ones that sit in the beds of pickups.

The random testing that they do in this country involves taking samples at the injectors.

Well, that takes about ten minutes to resolve. If that were the threat I'd just switch to on-road fuel ten minutes before going back on the highway.

That usually means that if someone has a switching arrangement, the legal diesel doesn't have time to feed through to the injectors. They stop you and make you switch off your engine.

They can't "stop us" without probable cause to do so. They only dip tanks at ports of entry anyway.

Don't know how the law in this country treats that sort of system.

The travelling people here are notorious for using red diesel, and if it was as simple as having two tanks, they would be using that all the time.

They probably don't give a fuck. Besides, there's not that much "off roading" to do there, and I suspect that "off-roading" isn't a justification for using red diesel over there. I suspect it's ONLY for farm and non-highway authorized powered equipment. Over here you can use it so long as you aren't on a public highway, and so long as you don't mix it with on-road diesel, which is why the dual-tank thing works. Farmers and ranchers commonly carry 90 to 100 gallons of off-road diesel in their truck-bed fuel transfer tanks precisely to fuel their equipment, which is perfectly legal. The loophole in the law allows one to use that tank as an auxiliary tank that runs the truck itself because a great many farmers and ranchers primarily use those pickups on their own private property, and ranches can be quite large around here so off-highway use can be the lion's share of use where red diesel is perfectly acceptable.

Putting red diesel in your diesel Rabbit or Mercedes on the other hand probably wouldn't do it, unless you cut the back off and have a bunch of hay bales in it. Then again how often do they stop and test a Mercedes-Benz.

I actually had this argument with a county clerk one time. You can get "farm plates" for vehicles used for farming or ranching purposes, and being a ranch owner I qualified. But, the local county clerk refused to issue me farm plates for my Chevy Blazer, claiming that because it had a rear seat it wasn't a proper "farm vehicle" like a pickup truck was. The definition of "farm vehicle" is:

C.R.S. 42-3-306(4)(a) reads in part, “Trucks and truck tractors owned by a farmer or rancher that are operated over the public highways and are only commercially used to transport to market or place of storage raw agricultural products actually produced or livestock actually raised by such farmer or rancher or to transport commodities and livestock purchased by such farmer or rancher for personal use and used in such person’s farming or ranching operations.”

She also disallowed larger "SUV" vehicles like Chevy Suburbans on the theory that because they were largely used as passenger vehicles, and, according to her, "a person who has a couple of horses isn't a rancher" even though they lived on agriculturally zoned property.

She agreed to issue me farm plates for my Blazer provided I removed the rear seat (which I had already removed anyway because I did carry hay bales and farm tools in it) and welded a plate over the rear seat mounting points, which I did and then promptly removed after she "inspected" them. Then she asked me to prove that my primary source of income was farming or ranching. She did this because she was a greenie who didn't like issuing farm plates because having them exempted you from having to take the annual emissions test. I objected to the income requirement because it was none of her business and she had no authority to even ask, much less inspect my tax returns.

I successfully argued on a pro-se appeal to the state Department of Motor Vehicles that she was exceeding her authority and was required to issue me plates. One of my arguments was that the cargo area of my Blazer was larger than the cargo area in a compact pickup truck which was eligible. This dispute resulted in the following amendment to the statutes by the next legislature:

C.R.S. 42-3-306(4)(e) reads, “The Department or its authorized agent shall not require a person registering a farm truck or truck tractor under this subsection (4) to demonstrate that the owner’s primary business or source of income is agriculture if the farm truck or truck tractor is used primarily for agricultural production on a farm or ranch owned or leased by the owner of the truck or truck tractor, and the land on which it is used is classified as agricultural land for the purposes of levying and collecting property tax under section 39-1-103, C.R.S.” (emphasis added)

Beat the bitch into the ground on that one!

[mistermack]

I thought you sold that farm?

[Seth]

I thought you sold that farm?

Well...yes. But the rationale remains valid. I also sold the Hummer.

[Hermit]

Less than three weeks ago, actually.

I also sold the Hummer.

but apparently the rationale remains valid.