Derails from Climate Change News thread.

Post Reply
User avatar
mistermack
Posts: 15093
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2010 10:57 am
About me: Never rong.
Contact:

Re: Derails from Climate Change News thread.

Post by mistermack » Sat May 17, 2014 12:28 pm

Tero wrote:So let me get this straight. As soon as you start measuring something, you are an alarmist loonie? As far as I know, the scientists are not the ones telling you to do this or that. The politicians have to do that.
Measuring is fine. Measuring is very good. As are hypotheses and theories, and testing them out, to better understand the world.
But when you take an untested hypothesis and misrepresent it's state of evidence, and wildly speculate on it's potential for doom, then you are to blame.
And most politicians wouldn't have a clue about the truth of climate science, and even if they did, their main preoccupation is to get elected.
So they make the right noises, build a few wind farms, make promises that some other future government will have to struggle with, and waste other people's money, all to get elected.
While there is a market for shit, there will be assholes to supply it.

User avatar
cronus
Black Market Analyst
Posts: 18122
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2012 7:09 pm
About me: Illis quos amo deserviam
Location: United Kingdom
Contact:

Re: Derails from Climate Change News thread.

Post by cronus » Sat May 17, 2014 12:36 pm

Smartest people on the planet know it's gonna fry without intervention. Can't re-invent the umbrella man for climate change times. Prefer to argue with vacuum heads whilst TSHTF on a planetary scale? Moral cowards? :coffee:

1. It is a geo-engineering issue now. Plenty of time to talk science for science sake after critical issues like building a space umbrella are taken seriously by the political elite.

2. The people who are slowing what needs to be done are adding risk. They need taking out of the equation.

3. Really, smart people hold a consensus of concern. Time to grab the steering wheels folks or we'll go off the cliff edge like a van of monkeys.
What will the world be like after its ruler is removed?

User avatar
FBM
Ratz' first Gritizen.
Posts: 45327
Joined: Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:43 pm
About me: Skeptic. "Because it does not contend
It is therefore beyond reproach"
Contact:

Re: Derails from Climate Change News thread.

Post by FBM » Sat May 17, 2014 1:46 pm

If there were just something small that we could easily plant in the ground that would grow up and capture CO2, we could unpave 90% of all the shit that's been needlessly paved and plant those things all around.
"A philosopher is a blind man in a dark room looking for a black cat that isn't there. A theologian is the man who finds it." ~ H. L. Mencken

"We ain't a sharp species. We kill each other over arguments about what happens when you die, then fail to see the fucking irony in that."

"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions in favor of vegetarianism while the wolf remains of a different opinion."

User avatar
macdoc
Twitcher
Posts: 9017
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:20 pm
Location: BirdWing Home FNQ
Contact:

Re: Derails from Climate Change News thread.

Post by macdoc » Sat May 17, 2014 2:38 pm

capture a LOT of CO2 ...unfortunately the timeline of trees and the problem do not match up very well.
Resident in Cairns Australia • Current ride> 2014 Honda CB500F • Travel photos https://500px.com/p/macdoc?view=galleries

User avatar
mistermack
Posts: 15093
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2010 10:57 am
About me: Never rong.
Contact:

Re: Derails from Climate Change News thread.

Post by mistermack » Sat May 17, 2014 4:23 pm

There is something out there that would capture and FIX carbon. And that is plankton.
You could dredge up sludge from the deep ocean, and disperse it at the surface, in the vast areas that are pretty much desert at present. Hard shelled plankton then proliferates, and takes carbon out of circulation making their shells, which will sink and accumulate on the ocean floor.

It wouldn't cost money, if the extra fish that were produced were assigned to those who paid for the dredging. It's win win win all round. I don't know why they don't do it.
While there is a market for shit, there will be assholes to supply it.

Seth
GrandMaster Zen Troll
Posts: 22077
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2011 1:02 am
Contact:

Re: Derails from Climate Change News thread.

Post by Seth » Sat May 17, 2014 6:15 pm

Tero wrote:So let me get this straight. As soon as you start measuring something, you are an alarmist loonie? As far as I know, the scientists are not the ones telling you to do this or that. The politicians have to do that.
Measuring something is saying "there exists quantity X of substance G in test sample 1 as shown by the following data and methodology."

Where the Warmist conspiracy begins is when someone says "and that means that A, B and C will occur."
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

Seth
GrandMaster Zen Troll
Posts: 22077
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2011 1:02 am
Contact:

Re: Derails from Climate Change News thread.

Post by Seth » Sat May 17, 2014 6:16 pm

mistermack wrote:There is something out there that would capture and FIX carbon. And that is plankton.
You could dredge up sludge from the deep ocean, and disperse it at the surface, in the vast areas that are pretty much desert at present. Hard shelled plankton then proliferates, and takes carbon out of circulation making their shells, which will sink and accumulate on the ocean floor.

It wouldn't cost money, if the extra fish that were produced were assigned to those who paid for the dredging. It's win win win all round. I don't know why they don't do it.
I heard that simply dumping finely ground iron oxide into the oceans will do the same thing.

Yes, there are things that capture CO2, like, oh, I don't know...plants.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

Seth
GrandMaster Zen Troll
Posts: 22077
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2011 1:02 am
Contact:

Re: Derails from Climate Change News thread.

Post by Seth » Sat May 17, 2014 6:18 pm

Scumple wrote:Smartest people on the planet know it's gonna fry without intervention. Can't re-invent the umbrella man for climate change times. Prefer to argue with vacuum heads whilst TSHTF on a planetary scale? Moral cowards? :coffee:

1. It is a geo-engineering issue now. Plenty of time to talk science for science sake after critical issues like building a space umbrella are taken seriously by the political elite.

2. The people who are slowing what needs to be done are adding risk. They need taking out of the equation.

3. Really, smart people hold a consensus of concern. Time to grab the steering wheels folks or we'll go off the cliff edge like a van of monkeys.
Except, as the article I posted in the climate change thread, this is not the case and the claim that "97 percent" of climate scientists agree is no more valid science than the toothpaste advertising claim that "9 out of10 dentists surveyed" is valid science.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

aspire1670
Posts: 318
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 1:37 pm

Re: Derails from Climate Change News thread.

Post by aspire1670 » Sat May 17, 2014 6:36 pm

Seth wrote:.

Yes, there are things that capture CO2, like, oh, I don't know...plants.
LOL The carbon cycle, ur doin it rong.
All rights have to be voted on. That's how they become rights.

Seth
GrandMaster Zen Troll
Posts: 22077
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2011 1:02 am
Contact:

Re: Derails from Climate Change News thread.

Post by Seth » Sat May 17, 2014 6:49 pm

aspire1670 wrote:
Seth wrote:.

Yes, there are things that capture CO2, like, oh, I don't know...plants.
LOL The carbon cycle, ur doin it rong.
All that coal in Wyoming says I'm not wrong.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

User avatar
macdoc
Twitcher
Posts: 9017
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 3:20 pm
Location: BirdWing Home FNQ
Contact:

Re: Global Climate Change Science News

Post by macdoc » Sat May 17, 2014 11:04 pm

Murdoch-owned media hypes lone metereologist's climate junk science
Absurd anti-science faux journalism flares up again - as usual, it's Big Oil that's set to benefit, not the public
Image
Businessman Rupert Murdoch arrives for the premiere of the film
Rupert Murdoch apparently trying (and failing) to look as harmless as possible. Photograph: LUCAS JACKSON/REUTERS


This morning I, like any of you, was disappointed to see that the frontpage of The Times carried a story by the paper's environment editor, Ben Webster, which read, 'Scientists in cover-up of "damaging" climate view.'

Variations of the story had been plastered everywhere, spearheaded by Murdoch-owned outlets, repeated uncritically by others.

The Daily Mail, much loved for its objective reporting on climate change (and other stuff), declared: 'Climate change scientist claims he has been forced from new job in "McCarthy"-style witch-hunt by academics across the world.'

These stories were quoted approvingly by the Wall Street Journal's James Taranto as "the latest reason to distrust the authority of 'consensus' climate scientists."

But even a cursory glance reveals how thin these stories are.

The latest climate denialist outburst hinges on one man - Prof Lennart Bengtsson of the University of Reading. According to the Mail and The Times, a paper submitted by Bengtsson to Environmental Research Letters, was rejected by the journal not because it was bad science, but because of political "intolerance of dissenting views on climate science" among climate scientists.

The paper purported to challenge the UN Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change's (IPCC) projections that global average temperatures could rise by more than 4 degrees Celsius by end of century, claiming that the climate was much less sensitive to carbon dioxide emissions than widely understood.

Bengtsson also complained that he had been bullied by climate scientists "all over the world" after he joined the notorious 'sceptic' think tank, the Global Warming Policy Foundation (GWPF), causing him to resign. The letter was published two days ago on the GWPF website as a press release:
"I have been put under such an enormous group pressure in recent days from all over the world that has become virtually unbearable to me. If this is going to continue I will be unable to conduct my normal work and will even start to worry about my health and safety. I see therefore no other way out therefore than resigning from GWPF. I had not expecting such an enormous world-wide pressure put at me from a community that I have been close to all my active life. Colleagues are withdrawing their support, other colleagues are withdrawing from joint authorship etc.

I see no limit and end to what will happen. It is a situation that reminds me about the time of McCarthy. I would never have expecting anything similar in such an original peaceful community as meteorology."
Contradicting this, however, in an apparent effort to pretend that the scientific community actually agrees with Bengtsson's claims about climate change, The Times story also reports: "Scientists from around the world sent messages of support to Professor Bengtsson."

So which is it? Did scientists worldwide support him or bully him?

Indeed, there seems little actual evidence for non-scientific motivations behind the rejection of Bengtsson's work. The Mail and Times, for instance, spin the quote of an unnamed scientist who had been asked to peer-review his paper submitted to Environmental Research Letters, saying the study's publication would be "harmful" to the climate science orthodoxy.

Both newspapers report this incredulously. How dare climate scientists worry about climate deniers exploiting junk science?

A spokesman for the journal's publisher, IOP Publishing, told the Mail that Bengtsson's submission:

"..
. was peer-reviewed by two independent reviewers, who reported that the paper contained errors and did not provide a significant advancement in the field, and therefore failed to meet the journal's required acceptance criteria. As a consequence, the independent reviewers recommended that the paper should not be published in the journal which led to the final editorial decision to reject the paper."
Sadly, that didn't stop these newspapers from suggesting that the decision was motivated by concerns other than advancing and protecting science.

I asked Prof Bengtsson to substantiate his allegations by clarifying the number of scientists who had allegedly been pressurising him to the point that he feared for his safety. I also requested to see the full text of the reports of the scientists who had peer-reviewed his rejected study due its scientific "errors." He did not respond to my request for comment.

Thankfully, IOP Publishing has decided to make the full reviewer reports publicly available so that we can all see why Bengtsson's paper was really rejected:
"The overall innovation of the manuscript is very low, as the calculations made to compare the three studies are already available within each of the sources, most directly in Otto et al...

Summarising, the simplistic comparison of ranges from AR4, AR5, and Otto et al, combined with the statement they are inconsistent is less then helpful, actually it is harmful as it opens the door for oversimplified claims of "errors" and worse from the climate sceptics media side."

Far from denying the validity of Bengtsson's questions, the reviewers set out ways he could improve the work:

"A careful, constructive, and comprehensive analysis of what these ranges mean, and how they come to be different, and what underlying problems these comparisons bring would indeed be a valuable contribution to the debate.

I have rated the potential impact in the field as high, but I have to emphasise that this would be a strongly negative impact, as it does not clarify anything but puts up the (false) claim of some big inconsistency, where no consistency was to be expected in the first place. And I can't see an honest attempt of constructive explanation in the manuscript.

Thus I would strongly advise rejecting the manuscript in its current form.
"
The "unbearable" scientific isolation that Prof Bengtsson experienced as a consequence of joining the GWPF, and submitting scientifically questionable material to a leading journal, should not come as a surprise. That the climate science community roundly rejects the GWPF's denialist rantings, and found Bengtsson's work in this regard unfit to publish, is evidence for the overwhelming consensus on climate change - not against it.

As an illustrative example of just how isolated Prof Bengtsson and his ilk are, consider the fact reported earlier this year by Scientific American that out of more than 2,000 peer-reviewed climate science publications put out over the last year from November 2012 to December 2013, the number of scientists who denied the role of human-caused CO2 emissions in current climate change "is exactly one."

That's right. One.

Compare that to the number of scientific authors of those 2,000 plus papers - 9,136. So over nine thousand scientists over the last year agree that our fossil fuel emissions are principally responsible for contemporary climate change, and just one disagrees. The poor sod must be feeling pretty damn lonely, I imagine. Perhaps almost as lonely as Prof Bengtsson.

Such media misrepresentation is now par for the course. According to Forbes' denialist in residence, James Taylor, "only half of American Meteorology Society meteorologists believe global warming is occurring and humans are the primary cause" based on a new survey.

The actual authors of that survey, published in the Bulletin of the American Meteorology Society, disagreed. In a statement responding to Taylor: "Among all the respondents, about 7 out of 10 (73%) said human activities have contributed to global warming." The survey further attempted to explore differences between meteorologists specialising in climate science, and those who didn't.

It's worth quoting the clarification here in detail:

"We found that more than 9 out of 10 climate science experts (93%) who publish mostly on climate change, and the same proportion (93%) of climate experts who publish mostly on other topics, were convinced that humans have contributed to global warming.

We also found that about 8 out of 10 meteorologists and atmospheric scientists who publish on climate (79%) or other topics (78%) were convinced that humans have contributed to global warming.

Lastly, we found that the group least likely to be convinced that humans have contributed to global warming was AMS members who do not publish research in the peer-reviewed scientific literature; only six out of 10 AMS members in this group (62%) were convinced."

Compare that to Taylor's flagrant misinformation.

Why would outfits like the GWPF and Murdoch-owned press engage in such absurd faux journalism? Who knows?

The GWPF barely needs much comment. One previous Guardian investigation uncovered that one of GWPF's funders is Tory Party donor Michael Hintze, head of $5bn hedge-fund CQS which operates in the oil finance industry, among other areas. Another investigation exposed the "links between Lord Lawson and the GWPF and fossil fuel companies", including "a large Australian coal company."

As for Rupert Murdoch, it's no secret that he has significant interests in the fossil fuel industry. Murdoch is a major equity share-holder in Genie Energy, where he is also a strategic advisory board member. Genie is a major investor in US and Israeli shale oil and gas projects.

Murdoch is "extremely well regarded by and connected to leaders" in the "oil and gas industry" and "the financial markets," rejoiced Genie CEO at the time.

According to the US journalism watchdog Media Matters, Murdoch's FOX News has frequently run news stories promoting Genie Energy's shale projects.

What we're seeing here, then, isn't really journalism at all. Whatever its intent, in effect, it amounts to little more than glorified industry PR calling itself 'news.'

The real story is how the IPCC's projections and solutions are likely to be far too conservative, having been 'diluted' by pressure from the world's biggest fossil fuel polluters.



http://www.theguardian.com/environment/ ... al-big-oil
Resident in Cairns Australia • Current ride> 2014 Honda CB500F • Travel photos https://500px.com/p/macdoc?view=galleries

User avatar
JimC
The sentimental bloke
Posts: 74156
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 7:58 am
About me: To be serious about gin requires years of dedicated research.
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Derails from Climate Change News thread.

Post by JimC » Sun May 18, 2014 1:00 am

University of Reading, eh...

Enough said...
Nurse, where the fuck's my cardigan?
And my gin!

Seth
GrandMaster Zen Troll
Posts: 22077
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2011 1:02 am
Contact:

Re: Derails from Climate Change News thread.

Post by Seth » Sun May 18, 2014 1:16 am

macdoc wrote:capture a LOT of CO2 ...unfortunately the timeline of trees and the problem do not match up very well.
That's your anthropocentric opinion. The planet does not exist to make things pleasant for you all the time.

Adapt or die.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

Seth
GrandMaster Zen Troll
Posts: 22077
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2011 1:02 am
Contact:

Re: Global Climate Change Science News

Post by Seth » Sun May 18, 2014 1:19 am

macdoc wrote: According to the US journalism watchdog Media Matters, Murdoch's FOX News has frequently run news stories promoting Genie Energy's shale projects.
Calling Media Matters a "journalism watchdog" is a lie of the highest order. It's a hard-left Marxist mouthpiece disinformation organ of George Soros and the radical left.

It's penchant for Alinsky-style character assassination is legendary.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

User avatar
mistermack
Posts: 15093
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2010 10:57 am
About me: Never rong.
Contact:

Re: Derails from Climate Change News thread.

Post by mistermack » Sun May 18, 2014 2:06 am

Seth wrote: I heard that simply dumping finely ground iron oxide into the oceans will do the same thing.

Yes, there are things that capture CO2, like, oh, I don't know...plants.
Iron has been trialed, with some mixed success, I believe ( without reading it up again ).

But shelled organisms need more than Iron. Iron will grow some green photosynthesising algae, but shell growing organisms need some other minerals like calcium or silicone. ( that's from memory, so it might be other stuff, but that is the principle ).

There are designs for doing what I suggested, dredging up silt from below. Some powered by wave motion too, which would help with the energy equation.
I think it could be done, but only on an international basis, which is probably the biggest hurdle.
But the potential is there. Wherever you get natural upwellings, you get huge blooms of plankton, leading to vast fishing grounds. As two thirds of the Earth is ocean, and eighty percent of that is virtual desert, at present, you have an area of about half the Earth's surface, that could be being used productively.
Fixing carbon would just be a convenient side show to the fish production

I don't think there's anything like the same scope for capturing carbon with plants. Most of the fertile land is used for growing food, and the Northern forests already trap carbon in tree growth.
But it doesn't fix it long-term, it all gets back into the atmosphere eventually.
While there is a market for shit, there will be assholes to supply it.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests