1100 gamma ray bursts a day on Earth!

[cronus]

This is one very sick thread.

[mistermack]

I'm not saying that Bohm interpretation is right. But entanglement does lend it credence. Apparently, it is gaining weight again at the moment after decades of dismissal. I suspect that the "truth" is somewhat weirder though. And I don't hold with a preferred frame - simply because the maths don't require one. Doesn't mean that there isn't one. But why add a flying, purple elephant to your equations if they work fine without it?

I've been trying to remember what made me think that. Whenever I've been looking at it, what I'm reading seems to suggest it.

If you believe that energy and matter do actually exist, then a preferred frame seems to have to exist.
Just a micro-second after the start of the big bang, the whole universe was in a pinhead-sized speck.
In the frame where that speck is stationary, there is a certain quantity of energy. In any other frame, that is moving relative to the speck, the total amount of energy in the universe is a phenomenal amount more. Because of the kinetic energy added on top of the intrinsic energy.

If you think that the Universe started life with an ACTUAL amount of energy, then the frame in which it was stationary is the only frame that gives the real value.
And since energy can't be created, the same frame should apply now.

There were other trains of thought that made me think that way, but I'd need to prod my memory.

[pErvinalia]

Speaking of quantum stuff, I am having a discussion on facebook with a friend about the mind/free-will etc. He's trying to wibble about quantum effects on consciousness/decision-making. I made the point that "random" quantum effects have no effect on a deterministic macro world. But then he pointed out the double-slit experiment. Now I iz confused.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

If you believe that energy and matter do actually exist, then a preferred frame seems to have to exist.
Just a micro-second after the start of the big bang, the whole universe was in a pinhead-sized speck.
In the frame where that speck is stationary, there is a certain quantity of energy. In any other frame, that is moving relative to the speck,

Let me stop you there. There is no other frame moving relative to that speck. That speck is the entire universe - everything - all matter, all energy, all movement, all reference frames - are within it. It makes no sense to talk about "outside" because you are talking about being outside of this universe.

[Xamonas Chegwé]

Speaking of quantum stuff, I am having a discussion on facebook with a friend about the mind/free-will etc. He's trying to wibble about quantum effects on consciousness/decision-making. I made the point that "random" quantum effects have no effect on a deterministic macro world. But then he pointed out the double-slit experiment. Now I iz confused.

Quantum effects have been observed in particles far larger than the electrons and photons that are normally described. Protons, neutrons, whole atoms and even molecules have been shown to obey quantum rules. It is certainly not unfeasible that quantum effects can determine whether or not a particular neuron fires - however, I expect that your friend is talking bollocks on some other level - most people that try and apply quantum physics to psychology and such end up doing so.

[pErvinalia]

So how are the laws of physics still deterministic if quantum effects are noticeable at the macro scale?

[Xamonas Chegwé]

So how are the laws of physics still deterministic if quantum effects are noticeable at the macro scale?

They are not! BUT, the quantum effects building up macro events are usually so numerous that they average out and the macro-events are effectively deterministic. Extremely delicate experimentation is required to observe quantum events in molecules. The largest molecule so far shown to exhibit particle-wave duality is Buckminsterfullerene - composed of 60 Carbon atoms. In theory, all matter has both wave and particle nature and is subject to quantum rules, however, don't expect to see a pickup truck in the double-slit experiment any time soon!

[pErvinalia]

Ah ok. So talking in terms of the brain, what he's speculating is that if quantum shit happens in the brain, then it could tip a mental choice one way over the other (and vice versa), meaning that we could never determine beforehand what a person might choose even if we knew everything that had happened in the universe up to that point. Is that right?

[pErvinalia]

So how are the laws of physics still deterministic if quantum effects are noticeable at the macro scale?

They are not! BUT, the quantum effects building up macro events are usually so numerous that they average out and the macro-events are effectively deterministic.

Can you expand on this a bit? For this to work quantum effects would have to be probabilistic around an average. If quantum effects were random then they wouldn't average out to anything, would they? I remember reading years ago when I used to try and understand QM that it was a probabilistic effect. Don't make me go back and read more stuff! Please! Just tell me the answer!

[Xamonas Chegwé]

Ah ok. So talking in terms of the brain, what he's speculating is that if quantum shit happens in the brain, then it could tip a mental choice one way over the other (and vice versa), meaning that we could never determine beforehand what a person might choose even if we knew everything that had happened in the universe up to that point. Is that right?

In theory, yes. However, once again we are into the realms of the summation of multiple quantum events.

Whether an individual neuron fires depends upon an the voltage gradient across its membranes, which in turn depends upon the enzymic pumping of ions into and out of the cell. Once this gradient reaches a critical point, an action potential is established and the neuron fires, releasing neurotransmitters into the synapse between it and the next neuron in the chain. Quantum principles come into play at every stage of this process but there are loads and loads of them. So, in general, things are probably more predictable than your friend suggests.

Also, most meaningful neural signals are not transmitted along a single chain of neurons but along multiple chains, further adding to the averaging out of any quantum effect.

One might just as easily say that quantum effects make it impossible to say when exactly a balloon will burst when it is overfilled with air. Or that quantum events govern the exact point at which ice forms on a river. These are equally true to the neuron example - and equally irrelevant in real terms.

The real reason that decisions are unpredictable is the practical impossibility of observing all of the millions of chemical and biological events going on in the process! No need to invoke quantums.

[pErvinalia]

Ok, yeah. I get the 'averaging out' thing now. Just to be clear, in the context of that other discussion, I'm not particularly interested it the practical implications of measuring determinism. More the concept. It wasn't your usual discussion on the mind. It grew out of the concepts of mental illness and reduced responsibility for crimes committed. I was essentially saying that without the concept of free will, no one should have any reduced (or enhanced) responsibility in comparison to anyone else, if we are deterministic creatures. I think he understands that whether we are deterministic or quantum random creatures, it still negates the concept of free will. But I like the idea of a mechanised universe and a computational brain. It suits my inner Spock.

[JimC]

In addition, chaos theory comes into play in complex systems like the brain, even if we stick to totally classical physics. A tiny difference in the firing of a single neuron could, if the system is on the edge of chaos, make large and essentially unpredictable change in the system output.

[laklak]

In theory, all matter has both wave and particle nature and is subject to quantum rules, however, don't expect to see a pickup truck in the double-slit experiment any time soon!

Yeah but it could happen, right? Like the improbability drive.

[JimC]

In theory, all matter has both wave and particle nature and is subject to quantum rules, however, don't expect to see a pickup truck in the double-slit experiment any time soon!

Yeah but it could happen, right? Like the improbability drive.

Is "let's check out the double slit experiment" a good pick up line, or should I have no truck with it?

[laklak]

I've never seen a double slit, but I heard about this bar on Patpong Road....