Boeing 787

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Coito ergo sum
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Re: Boeing 787

Post by Coito ergo sum » Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:36 pm

Not only did they develop wing cracks, they also had electrical problems in the cock pits and loss of indicators and gauges -- http://jacksonville.com/news/national/2 ... indicators
As United Flight 731 climbed out of Newark with 107 people aboard, the pilot and first officer were startled to find screens that display crucial navigational information were blank or unreadable and radios were dead.
Landing gear issues with Airbus: http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/story?secti ... id=8831585

Lousy cockpit design: http://www.fastcodesign.com/1669720/how ... 228-people

Shoddy wiring caused years of delay in the production of the A380 -- http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2006 ... travelnews

Airbus A380 developing structural problems: http://www.frommers.com/community/forum ... l-problems

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Re: Boeing 787

Post by Jason » Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:38 pm

Yep. But as every article which brings up the a380 at all says, those where regular, and minor, teething problems. The grounding of an entire fleet hasn't happened since 1979 and is due to very serious concerns about the safety of the 787.

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Re: Boeing 787

Post by Coito ergo sum » Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:42 pm

Svartalf wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:
Făkünamę wrote:Of course the 787 will be brought up to safety standards and they'll be flying again. The real question is how badly will Boeing's sales suffer as a result of these inexcusable defects and the mass of negative publicity they've received as a result? Most people didn't know about Boeing's poor manufacturing process before this. They did not know how Boeing cuts corners to save money. Now they do. They also know Boeing will push out a product that is not ready for the market and claim with "100%" certainty that they are safe. If you have Boeing stocks, I'd sell them now.
It's a battery problem in new technology. I hadn't heard that there was some implication that they have "poor manufacturing processes" or that they "cut corners to save money." Where does that come from?
Lithium batteries are hardly a new tech...
The kind in the Dreamliner is new tech, and hasn't been used before. The idea of the Dreamliner was to reduce weight, and so part of the way in which they do that is to use a much lighter battery, and the battery use is central to the design because they eliminate hydraulics. The most recent Airbus, the A380, has one, but the Dreamliner uses them far more extensively.

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Re: Boeing 787

Post by Coito ergo sum » Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:45 pm

Făkünamę wrote:No they're not. The potential for fires which are very difficult to put out, and probably impossible while in flight, was well known before the first 787 rolled off the line.
Aussie engineers were calling for the A380 fleet to be grounded. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16452878

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Re: Boeing 787

Post by Jason » Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:49 pm

Perhaps. The fact is the 'wings' did not crack, but of the 2000 or so brackets per wing which hold the skin on, about 5 or 6 would crack after 1400 hours of flight time. The solution? Replace them after 1400 hours (that is about 3 years of service). You're just not comparing apples to apples here. Even if you were, how does that diminish the facts on the ground (clever play of words eh?) ?

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Re: Boeing 787

Post by Coito ergo sum » Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:54 pm

Făkünamę wrote:Perhaps. The fact is the 'wings' did not crack, but of the 2000 or so brackets per wing which hold the skin on, about 5 or 6 would crack after 1400 hours of flight time. The solution? Replace them after 1400 hours (that is about 3 years of service). You're just not comparing apples to apples here. Even if you were, how does that diminish the facts on the ground (clever play of words eh?) ?
I am, because the issue with the battery is likely a question of maintenance and handling of the batteries. Your red herring of "the safety concerns were well known before they rolled off the assembly line" implies that Boeing knew they'd go on fire and bring down planes, but they just don't care. The reality is that the batteries are safe, but Lithium Ion batteries have to be treated differently than the nickel batteries.

Obviously, all problems are a big concern, and I applaud a cautious approach. But, these are issues that will be fixed. There is no panic among customers. Boeing will compensate them for losses, and the problem will be rectified and the planes will fly. It's beautiful plane, and is a tremendous achievement and advancement of passenger airline technology.

My objection is to the characterization of this as an almost purposeful launch of an unsafe aircraft by the "shoddy" and "cut corners at the cost of safety" Boeing -- cut to executives of Boeing twirling mustaches like Simon Legree, lusting for the blood of passengers.

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Re: Boeing 787

Post by Svartalf » Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:02 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:
Svartalf wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:
Făkünamę wrote:Of course the 787 will be brought up to safety standards and they'll be flying again. The real question is how badly will Boeing's sales suffer as a result of these inexcusable defects and the mass of negative publicity they've received as a result? Most people didn't know about Boeing's poor manufacturing process before this. They did not know how Boeing cuts corners to save money. Now they do. They also know Boeing will push out a product that is not ready for the market and claim with "100%" certainty that they are safe. If you have Boeing stocks, I'd sell them now.
It's a battery problem in new technology. I hadn't heard that there was some implication that they have "poor manufacturing processes" or that they "cut corners to save money." Where does that come from?
Lithium batteries are hardly a new tech...
The kind in the Dreamliner is new tech, and hasn't been used before. The idea of the Dreamliner was to reduce weight, and so part of the way in which they do that is to use a much lighter battery, and the battery use is central to the design because they eliminate hydraulics. The most recent Airbus, the A380, has one, but the Dreamliner uses them far more extensively.
Fly by wire? I thought that was perfected long ago? Maybe they'll just have to reduce the cargo weight and use safer, yheavier batteries.
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Re: Boeing 787

Post by Jason » Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:05 pm

I didn't imply that they knew. I thought I was quite clearly saying that they knew. It's not hard to find articles which say the same thing. The FAA even issued specifications regarding the inherent and serious safety issues (which we now call faults). What you are engaged in is protectionism - to state the obvious. As was the FAA until the Japan grounded all their 787s. Forbes, of all great American capitalist magazines, agrees with me.

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Re: Boeing 787

Post by Coito ergo sum » Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:20 pm

Svartalf wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:
Svartalf wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:
Făkünamę wrote:Of course the 787 will be brought up to safety standards and they'll be flying again. The real question is how badly will Boeing's sales suffer as a result of these inexcusable defects and the mass of negative publicity they've received as a result? Most people didn't know about Boeing's poor manufacturing process before this. They did not know how Boeing cuts corners to save money. Now they do. They also know Boeing will push out a product that is not ready for the market and claim with "100%" certainty that they are safe. If you have Boeing stocks, I'd sell them now.
It's a battery problem in new technology. I hadn't heard that there was some implication that they have "poor manufacturing processes" or that they "cut corners to save money." Where does that come from?
Lithium batteries are hardly a new tech...
The kind in the Dreamliner is new tech, and hasn't been used before. The idea of the Dreamliner was to reduce weight, and so part of the way in which they do that is to use a much lighter battery, and the battery use is central to the design because they eliminate hydraulics. The most recent Airbus, the A380, has one, but the Dreamliner uses them far more extensively.
Fly by wire? I thought that was perfected long ago? Maybe they'll just have to reduce the cargo weight and use safer, yheavier batteries.
Were the advancements made in the Dreamliner "old hat?"

If the lithium-ion battery isn't safe, then the airbus will have to take it out of the A380, too.

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Re: Boeing 787

Post by Coito ergo sum » Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:25 pm

Făkünamę wrote:I didn't imply that they knew. I thought I was quite clearly saying that they knew. It's not hard to find articles which say the same thing. The FAA even issued specifications regarding the inherent and serious safety issues (which we now call faults). What you are engaged in is protectionism - to state the obvious. As was the FAA until the Japan grounded all their 787s. Forbes, of all great American capitalist magazines, agrees with me.
If the FAA was aware that the batteries were unsafe, then what good is the FAA? And, why did the European aviation administrations allow the planes to fly? They all knew the batteries were unsafe, but they said "fuck it, let's roll the dice?"

I'm not sure that anyone agrees with your position that Boeing 'knew" the batteries were unsafe. What was known was that lithium ion batteries require some added care that nickel batteries don't. The Airbus uses lithium ion in the A380, so they aren't inherently prohibitive. What is it that you think everyone agrees with you on?

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Re: Boeing 787

Post by Jason » Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:29 pm

What good are rhetorical questions when faced with facts? What is the point of arguing with someone who consistently distorts the truth of a situation? Why should I be bothered to correct your misrepresentations and direct attention back to the real issues from your perniciously planted red herrings?

There is no point and I should not bother. Arguing with a fool makes you a fool.

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Re: Boeing 787

Post by Svartalf » Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:30 pm

:jester: ?
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Re: Boeing 787

Post by Coito ergo sum » Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:31 pm

Făkünamę wrote:What good are rhetorical questions when faced with facts? What is the point of arguing with someone who consistently distorts the truth of a situation? Why should I be bothered to correct your misrepresentations and direct attention back to the real issues from your perniciously planted red herrings?

There is no point and I should not bother. Arguing with a fool makes you a fool.
LOL - whatever floats your boat. You're the one who thinks it was "well known" that the batteries Boeing was using were unsafe, and the FAA knew it too. They all must've just said "fuck it - if they crash, they crash," right?

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Re: Boeing 787

Post by pErvinalia » Fri Jan 18, 2013 1:27 am

Coito ergo sum wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:Let the free-market work it out. Relatives of the dead can sue Boeing. No more crashes after that.
The regulatory environment we have prevents crashes? Good to know...
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Re: Boeing 787

Post by pErvinalia » Fri Jan 18, 2013 1:29 am

Făkünamę wrote:Of course you haven't Coito.
:hehe:
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