Mystery solved. How and why human ancestors became upright.

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Re: What is the most badass technology developed by humans?

Post by Don't Panic » Mon Dec 06, 2010 9:29 pm

Gawdzilla wrote:
Don't Panic wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote:
mistermack wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote:You pump out absurdities with a straight face. It's fun to watch. Clear now?
You pump out shite in huge quantities. Is that why you're named after a dinosaur?
See? Godzilla was a mutant lizard, not a dinosaur. Do try to keep up.
Kids if I have to come over there and slap you both good looking I will, no matter how long it takes.
Come anywhere near me and I'll pour 18 yo Chivas down your throat. :mod:
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Re: What is the most badass technology developed by humans?

Post by Ilovelucy » Mon Dec 06, 2010 9:29 pm

Pappa wrote:
Ilovelucy wrote:I doubt sticks would have been too handy for breaking the bones of scavenged carcasses in order to feast on the marrow within, which is pretty typical of the earliest hominid evidence of carnivory. But if we want to look at the tool that has been used most over human history it can only be one thing:

Image

The Acheulean hand axe.
Meh.... that's nothing compared to the conceptual and technological leap they took in the Mesolithic.
I start getting all technophobic when people talk about the Mesolithic. Wooden spears are one thing, hand axes another, but when people start talking about putting stone blades at the end of wooden sticks, it scrambles my brain man...
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Re: What is the most badass technology developed by humans?

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Dec 06, 2010 9:35 pm

Don't Panic wrote: :think: Briar patch moment.
You weren't supposed to catch that.
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Re: What is the most badass technology developed by humans?

Post by mistermack » Mon Dec 06, 2010 11:18 pm

Ilovelucy wrote:
*edit, a quick bit of searching shows I've stumbled across a pet theory. I'm stepping away, I'm stepping slowly away...
I would, till you know a bit more about the subject.
There's so much wrong with what you wrote there, you obviously need to step back and brush up a bit.
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Re: What is the most badass technology developed by humans?

Post by Ilovelucy » Tue Dec 07, 2010 8:21 am

mistermack wrote:
Ilovelucy wrote:
*edit, a quick bit of searching shows I've stumbled across a pet theory. I'm stepping away, I'm stepping slowly away...
I would, till you know a bit more about the subject.
There's so much wrong with what you wrote there, you obviously need to step back and brush up a bit.
I know, starting with the fact that I got it from amateurs like Ian Tattersall, Stephen Mithen, Chris Stringer, Clive Finlayson...

No contest for something someone pulled out of their poopee.
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Re: What is the most badass technology developed by humans?

Post by mistermack » Tue Dec 07, 2010 10:25 pm

Ilovelucy wrote:
mistermack wrote:
Ilovelucy wrote:
*edit, a quick bit of searching shows I've stumbled across a pet theory. I'm stepping away, I'm stepping slowly away...
I would, till you know a bit more about the subject.
There's so much wrong with what you wrote there, you obviously need to step back and brush up a bit.
I know, starting with the fact that I got it from amateurs like Ian Tattersall, Stephen Mithen, Chris Stringer, Clive Finlayson...

No contest for something someone pulled out of their poopee.
I find your name-dropping rather pathetic. There's a big chasm between hearing things, reading things, and actually understanding things. It's clear from what you wrote, you haven't yet made the leap.
.
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Re: What is the most badass technology developed by humans?

Post by Ilovelucy » Wed Dec 08, 2010 12:03 am

mistermack wrote:
Ilovelucy wrote:
mistermack wrote:
Ilovelucy wrote:
*edit, a quick bit of searching shows I've stumbled across a pet theory. I'm stepping away, I'm stepping slowly away...
I would, till you know a bit more about the subject.
There's so much wrong with what you wrote there, you obviously need to step back and brush up a bit.
I know, starting with the fact that I got it from amateurs like Ian Tattersall, Stephen Mithen, Chris Stringer, Clive Finlayson...

No contest for something someone pulled out of their poopee.
I find your name-dropping rather pathetic. There's a big chasm between hearing things, reading things, and actually understanding things. It's clear from what you wrote, you haven't yet made the leap.
.
Ah, so I gather you have read them and are willing to tell me how I went wrong, seeing as it's all really about sticks and stuff. I look forward to your assessment, rather than more nebulous alusions to where I went wrong. Oh, by the way, I forgot to mention that the comparative anatomical studies about spear throwing came from Leslie Aiello's experiments at UCL, but I'm sure you knew that already. :biggrin:
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Re: What is the most badass technology developed by humans?

Post by mistermack » Wed Dec 08, 2010 4:08 am

I shouldn't bite at every sarky comment, but that's just me.
If you're interested, I'll list where you're looking in the wrong direction.
Firstly, throwing spears is completely irrelevant. Nobody's proposing anything about that activity. It's a hunting technique that must have emerged very late, and is in no way connected to the early use of the stick.
Modern apes are absolutely crap at throwing. It needs mental development as well as physical. And all you need is a bit of common sense to work out that once you've thrown your sharp stick, you are defenceless.
I was talking about a solid, hardwood stick, which is an extremely effective weapon, so long as you hang onto it. Especially in the hands of a creature with very strong hands and arms.

Imagine you had to enter a yard which held an agressive dog that was sure to attack you. If you had the choice, would you take a big stick, or not? How much safer would you feel if you had a good solid two-meter hardwood stick in your hands? And if the ends were sharpened, wouldn't you feel even more confident?
And how daft would it be to throw the pole at the dog? You would naturally keep hold of it, and if you felt really threatened, you could shove it down it's throat, poke at it's eyes, or just stab it.
Without the stick, a big dog would be favourite. With the stick, I would back myself to fight off any dog.

So I'm talking about hand-held sticks, not throwing-spears.

Now put yourself in the place of some smallish newly-upright apes, looking for carcasses to scavenge.
You can't sprint like your four footed ancestors. Your canine teeth are receding, and ineffective. All you have is a few stones, but you are crap at throwing. How would you feel, if you met a couple of hyenas? They can out-run you, out bite you, they are bigger than you, and they are skilful at working together. You wouldn't stand the slightest chance.
Can you really imagine that these small apes wandered around looking for carcasses with just a few stones for protection? (in any case, the evidence strongly indicates that for millions of years, stones were not carried about, they were used where they were found).
So if you ignore the use of sticks, you have apes wandering about with no protection, with nothing in their hands, when surrounded by extremely efficient predators. And they survived like that for three and a half million years. Apparently. When suitable weapons lay all around them.
Ilovelucy wrote: It's all a bit more complicated than that I'm afraid. Humans did indeed use sharpened spears later in the day, according to the archaeological record, and their numbers would have helped them to defend against predators.
Of course it's more complicated. Nobody's saying it's simple.
I wonder what sharpened spears you mean, in the archaeological record?
You should know that spears simply don't appear at all in the archaeological record, because they rot, and get broken down by termites.
As for numbers helping against predators, it doesn't seem to help the wildebeest. You need large size, or weapons, or speed, or wings, or the ability to shin up a tree.
I'm sure that you know that at the very time that our ancestors began living on the ground, they lost their big canine teeth, their main weapons. So they had no effective defence at all.
Ilovelucy wrote: Baboons don't need spears to fight off and kill leopards;
What? Where did you get that idea? Baboons are a regular prey of leopards. I've seen on film a female leopard face down an entire troop of about 100 baboons, which scattered and ran. They got too close to her den, where she had cubs.
A group of about fifteen big male baboons finally faced her, and she backed off, but only after she had moved the entire troop on.
The baboons were terrified. She was perfectly confident.
Baboons maybe kill cubs if they come across them, but on the evidence of my eyes, even one female leopard can face down an entire troup.
Ilovelucy wrote: It has been hypothesised that early hominids may have scared predators away from carcasses by throwing stones at them, far more effective than approaching with sticks
A pretty dumb hypothesis. Like I said, it's established that stones were not carried around. And again, you try fighting off a big dog by throwing stones. ( which you would have to conveniently find at the right time ) It just doesn't wash.
But would you like to face a small band of chimps, with sharpened sticks, and the skilled ability to stab you with them? I'd rather face stones any day. Contrast the brain power needed to accurately throw stones, compared to stabbing you with a sharp stick.
Ilovelucy wrote: Many humans also did indeed hunt in the woods at closer quarters, such as the Neanderthals and Homo heidelbergensis. No resurgence of climbing ability happened there.
Of course not. Nobody says it should. Once man had the all wooden spear, they had no need of climbing to escape predators. They became THE dominant predator.
Ilovelucy wrote: The point remains, this was the sole item of human technology that humans used for over a million years, it is implanted deep within our psyches. Deep down, everything that we create, be it rockets, pens, rifles or strap on dildos, they are all linear ancestors of the Acheulean hand axe.
That thinking is purely the result of the fact that stone doesn't rot.
It's absolutely silly to assume that because we don't find the spears, they weren't in use. So we were knapping stones, and still hadn't worked out that a stick is a brilliant weapon? That you can kill snakes with, without getting bitten? Or porcupines, without getting spiked? And what about the digging stick? There's good evidence that robust australopithecenes were digging roots, as was Lucy, in all probability. Digging naturally sharpens the end of a stick. It's no big jump to use it for multi purposes.

Finally, Chris Stringer was one of several professional anthropologists that I sent a summary to, when I first wrote the stick hypothesis up a few years ago. Every one responded favourably, and Chris Stringer was particularly astute.
He said that it was an interesting idea, but would be hard to prove (quite true) but that it had merit and should be taken further. So you dropped the wrong name there.
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Re: What is the most badass technology developed by humans?

Post by Ilovelucy » Wed Dec 08, 2010 8:07 am

Mistermack, I appreciate the effort you made in the above but you have pulled all of your arguments out of your arse without citing one piece of research or evidence. Everyone has an evolutionary just so story. I could go into things in more detail later but it's probably best if a mod places these posts in your other thread. Most of your arguments are wither expressions of incredulity or statements such as "I have seen a film of". I have well thumbed, major works of Tattersall, Stringer and many more on my book shelf. Tell me where they back up your just-so-story and I'll go have a look. I have corresponded with Stringer myself, he's a very nice man and responds to his email. That doesn't validate your ideas, some scientists like to promote enthusiasm for their discipline and won't shoot people down in email correspondences, this does not equal the validation of a theory. I think that your account is a nice story but that's all it is until evidence turns up.

But for now:

You claim that Baboons don't kill leopards, and claim that you saw "one film" where a large group are intimidated by a female leopard with cubs. But there are recorded instances of baboons killing , or attacking leopards.

http://www.wilderness-safaris.com/news/ ... sItem=4335

"Most attacks on baboons by leopard take place in low light conditions when the leopard can take refuge from the response of the troop. Attacks in daylight end in mobbing behaviour of the kind witnessed here, or even leopard fatalities at the hands of baboons that have been recorded all over Africa."

Secondly, you state:
mistermack wrote:You should know that spears simply don't appear at all in the archaeological record, because they rot, and get broken down by termites.
Spears do appear in the archaeological record, with later species such as H heidelbergensis and H neanderthalensis as I said, and it would have taken you two seconds on Google this before making that assertion!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sn/prehistoric_lif ... ans1.shtml

Spears probably made an appearance earlier than this, but we have other ways of finding this out, by the kind of marks that spears make on carcasses and there is no evidence of this in the window of time that you refer to.

I'm not averse to the idea that early hominids may have used branches for defence when being attacked but in a less premeditated clubbing sense. Opposable thumbed hominids would have used whatever was at hand from branches to stones, and the first stone tool using hominids may have sacrificed their Oldowan choppers in order to see off a predator. A predator may not have fled from a solitary stone thrower but a troop of them would prove quite effective.

link
Last edited by Ilovelucy on Wed Dec 08, 2010 8:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What is the most badass technology developed by humans?

Post by Clinton Huxley » Wed Dec 08, 2010 8:30 am

I think spears were developed by early hominids in their aquatic phase. Useful both for fending off predators and as walking sticks when wading through rivers. The frequent wetting of the spears accelerated the rotting process, which is why we don't find 'em.
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Re: What is the most badass technology developed by humans?

Post by Ilovelucy » Wed Dec 08, 2010 8:36 am

Clinton Huxley wrote:I think spears were developed by early hominids in their aquatic phase. Useful both for fending off predators and as walking sticks when wading through rivers. The frequent wetting of the spears accelerated the rotting process, which is why we don't find 'em.
Plus spears would have made good flotation devices, and are often seen to wedge comfortably into crocodiles jaws to keep them from biting in cartoons. The stick normally snaps under the force of the crocodiles bite at first, but this usually allows time for the protagonists, lets say Shaggy, to run frantically on the spot for a few seconds before launching off at great speed.
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Re: What is the most badass technology developed by humans?

Post by Clinton Huxley » Wed Dec 08, 2010 8:40 am

Ilovelucy wrote:
Clinton Huxley wrote:I think spears were developed by early hominids in their aquatic phase. Useful both for fending off predators and as walking sticks when wading through rivers. The frequent wetting of the spears accelerated the rotting process, which is why we don't find 'em.
Plus spears would have made good flotation devices, and are often seen to wedge comfortably into crocodiles jaws to keep them from biting in cartoons. The stick normally snaps under the force of the crocodiles bite at first, but this usually allows time for the protagonists, lets say Shaggy, to run frantically on the spot for a few seconds before launching off at great speed.
Plus, if our ancient ancestors found a hollow tree, poked it full of holes, stuck spears through the holes and then filled the top half of the tree with nuts, they could play Kerplunk.
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Re: What is the most badass technology developed by humans?

Post by Ilovelucy » Wed Dec 08, 2010 8:44 am

Clinton Huxley wrote:
Ilovelucy wrote:
Clinton Huxley wrote:I think spears were developed by early hominids in their aquatic phase. Useful both for fending off predators and as walking sticks when wading through rivers. The frequent wetting of the spears accelerated the rotting process, which is why we don't find 'em.
Plus spears would have made good flotation devices, and are often seen to wedge comfortably into crocodiles jaws to keep them from biting in cartoons. The stick normally snaps under the force of the crocodiles bite at first, but this usually allows time for the protagonists, lets say Shaggy, to run frantically on the spot for a few seconds before launching off at great speed.
Plus, if our ancient ancestors found a hollow tree, poked it full of holes, stuck spears through the holes and then filled the top half of the tree with nuts, they could play Kerplunk.
There's also nothing better than a sharp stick when you have an itchy bumhole. Just a few seconds a day of stick action would save many hours of awkward finger activity. Many of these hominids would have been seen sniffing the stick afterwards if they thought no-one was watching.
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Re: What is the most badass technology developed by humans?

Post by Clinton Huxley » Wed Dec 08, 2010 8:48 am

Further, an increase in the consumption of meat, brought about opportunistically by the development of the spear, may have led to constipation. As the Chilean football team that crashed in the Andes and indulged in cannibalism found, a stick up the rear is one way of dislodging a compacted stool. Taking these factors together, it is difficult to see how our hominid ancestors could have survived without spears
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Re: What is the most badass technology developed by humans?

Post by Pappa » Wed Dec 08, 2010 8:48 am

I know what Clinton really thinks is the most badass technology developed by humans. He's not saying though, due to the shame, guilt and embarassment it will cause him.

Admit it Clinton, it's the microwave oven, because it can be used to cook Rustler's burgers. I'm right, aren't I?

:hehe:

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