Burning coal - my solution to the problem.

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JimC
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Re: Burning coal - my solution to the problem.

Post by JimC » Fri Aug 07, 2015 2:24 am

Seth wrote:

The market itself determines what is "nasty" and what is "nice" as a part of it's natural function.
And therein lies the problem, when human actions are causing environmental damage and/or long term problems. The market, by its very nature, is short-sighted. It has no requirement to take into account "the commons", or anything beyond the short term effects on profit. If a polluting company can dump its waste into a lake without penalty, saving money by doing so, it will count as "nice" in terms of the market.

Don't get me wrong; that is a useful way to run an economy in terms of immediate efficiency, and many types of innovation. But it needs some governmental and international input when its actions are causing long term damage.
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Re: Burning coal - my solution to the problem.

Post by Seth » Fri Aug 07, 2015 3:16 am

JimC wrote:
Seth wrote:

The market itself determines what is "nasty" and what is "nice" as a part of it's natural function.
And therein lies the problem, when human actions are causing environmental damage and/or long term problems. The market, by its very nature, is short-sighted. It has no requirement to take into account "the commons", or anything beyond the short term effects on profit. If a polluting company can dump its waste into a lake without penalty, saving money by doing so, it will count as "nice" in terms of the market.
Indeed. Since the market is the people and quite accurately represents their will, more accurately and more currently than any political process, the market is a prime indicator of the will of the people which, according to socialist doctrine, must rule. If the will of the people, as expressed by their billions upon billions of individual "votes" in the free market, is that the products or services offered by a company are worth more to them than the environmental "damage" you think might be occurring, then who are you to complain? That's the thing about "democracy," it doesn't always agree with what you want. But if you demand democracy then you should get it, good and hard, and the free market is the most accurate and up-to-date information about the will of the people that can possibly exist, so suck it up and accept the will of the majority.
Don't get me wrong; that is a useful way to run an economy in terms of immediate efficiency, and many types of innovation. But it needs some governmental and international input when its actions are causing long term damage.
That rather depends on who is defining "damage" and how they do so, doesn't it? The beauty of the market is that its definition of "damage" is a direct and immediate reflection of the opinions of the majority of the populace, expressed on a day-by-day basis. We haven't built any nuke plants in the US in decades because the marketplace has voted against them, so they don't get built.

If the public doesn't think that coal power plants are causing damage, they can, and should reflect that collective decision (in the socialist model) by demanding cheap electricity using the cheapest, most abundant source of energy we have: coal.

Willothepeeple and all.

So suck it up, you've been outvoted.
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Re: Burning coal - my solution to the problem.

Post by Blind groper » Fri Aug 07, 2015 3:54 am

The will of the people gets bypassed rather a lot. Businesses and companies hide their environmental destruction to ensure that their customers keep buying in ignorance. Government controls are needed.

In this case, the release of greenhouse gases have a major international harm in the long run, so local short term benefits must be over-ruled. International agreements are required, and must be policed.

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Re: Burning coal - my solution to the problem.

Post by JimC » Fri Aug 07, 2015 4:32 am

To Seth:

No, I haven't been outvoted, there are government efforts in all countries, to a greater or lesser extent, to impose various restrictions on commercial activities on environmental grounds. These are, in general, supported by the majority, because they recognise that the common good and an environment fit for life has a value which goes beyond company profits. In the same way, there are a range of international agreements in the same vein.

Having said that, BG's original proposal is politically virtually impossible at the moment. However, there will be a steadily increasing push across all countries for actions to limit carbon emissions. Generally speaking, it cannot happen any faster than overall public opinion, your "will of the people", can allow. This may be slower than impatient environmentalists want, but they, like all members of the global community, have to accept compromises and pragmatic political realities.
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Re: Burning coal - my solution to the problem.

Post by Seth » Fri Aug 07, 2015 8:52 pm

Blind groper wrote:The will of the people gets bypassed rather a lot. Businesses and companies hide their environmental destruction to ensure that their customers keep buying in ignorance. Government controls are needed.
Sure they are. Government need only do one thing in response to such actions by a company to very quickly bring the entire industry into voluntary compliance: Seize all of the assets of the corporation and imprison its officers and distribute the assets in cash to those who were harmed by the wrongful action. Do that once or twice and there will be very little in the way of export of harm or initiation of force or fraud by corporations.

Government exists for that very purpose; to police society against the initiation of force or fraud and to make sure that the perpetrators are punished and the victims compensated.

Then again, whether force or fraud is initiated is a political decision of the society involved. If they are satisfied to allow the exported harm (acid rain) because the benefits they gain in return outweigh those consequences, then it's not an "initiation" of force or fraud because the public assents to the impacts, as it ought to be allowed to do in its own interests.

That's how Libertarianism and free markets work, you see. When consumers get fed up with being cheated or harmed, they take action and the perpetrators pay the penalty for doing so, sometimes with the assistance of the government and other times without.
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Re: Burning coal - my solution to the problem.

Post by Seth » Fri Aug 07, 2015 8:59 pm

JimC wrote:To Seth:

No, I haven't been outvoted, there are government efforts in all countries, to a greater or lesser extent, to impose various restrictions on commercial activities on environmental grounds. These are, in general, supported by the majority, because they recognise that the common good and an environment fit for life has a value which goes beyond company profits. In the same way, there are a range of international agreements in the same vein.
Are they manifestations of majority rule? Perhaps, perhaps not. The latest EPA mandates do not appear to be supported by much of anyone outside of the Obama administration, but time will tell.
Having said that, BG's original proposal is politically virtually impossible at the moment. However, there will be a steadily increasing push across all countries for actions to limit carbon emissions. Generally speaking, it cannot happen any faster than overall public opinion, your "will of the people", can allow. This may be slower than impatient environmentalists want, but they, like all members of the global community, have to accept compromises and pragmatic political realities.
Indeed. Unless the will of the people changes, which it can easily do.

For example, the draconian EPA anti-coal regulations recently announced will do nothing to improve global air quality because the improvements are so minimal as compared to the pollution-belching coal plants going on-line in China at the rate of one or two a week or so that all the financial burdens of complying do nothing but bankrupt our economy and compromise our ability to compete in the global marketplace. This is as intended. You see, the US is one of the world leaders in reducing carbon output already, and has been for more than 25 years, but it's never going to be enough for Obama and his ilk because their agenda has nothing to do with global warming or CO2 reduction whatsoever, it's entirely about bringing down the United States and subjugating it to the Marxist plan for world domination and global government. Obama, you see, hates the US with insane passion and is determined to turn it into a 3rd world country to punish it for resisting the Marxist plan. That has always been his goal, and he announced as much during his first campaign.

Well, we, the People, are getting fed up with his treason and will be doing something about it in the near future.
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"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: Burning coal - my solution to the problem.

Post by Blind groper » Fri Aug 07, 2015 9:46 pm

And so Seth reveals the essential insanity that lies behind his political beliefs.

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Re: Burning coal - my solution to the problem.

Post by Seth » Sat Aug 08, 2015 2:24 am

Blind groper wrote:And so Seth reveals the essential insanity that lies behind his political beliefs.
Insanity is, as Stalin and you prove, largely a matter of political opinion and little else.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

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Re: Burning coal - my solution to the problem.

Post by JimC » Sat Aug 08, 2015 5:56 am

Seth wrote:

...the Marxist plan for world domination and global government...
:funny:

If Seth didn't exist, someone would have to invent him, as a caricature of the US right...
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Re: Burning coal - my solution to the problem.

Post by Seth » Sat Aug 08, 2015 7:08 am

JimC wrote:
Seth wrote:

...the Marxist plan for world domination and global government...
:funny:

If Seth didn't exist, someone would have to invent him, as a caricature of the US right...
Typical Marxist useful idiot denialism.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: Burning coal - my solution to the problem.

Post by mistermack » Sat Aug 08, 2015 1:01 pm

My solution to the "burning coal" problem is firelighters.

Although I've never found it much of a problem.
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Re: Burning coal - my solution to the problem.

Post by Seth » Sat Aug 08, 2015 10:48 pm

mistermack wrote:My solution to the "burning coal" problem is firelighters.

Although I've never found it much of a problem.
Bad solution. There are thousands of coalmine fires burning today, some of which have been burning for hundreds of years, that firefighters can't put out.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: Burning coal - my solution to the problem.

Post by JimC » Sat Aug 08, 2015 11:09 pm

Seth wrote:
mistermack wrote:My solution to the "burning coal" problem is firelighters.

Although I've never found it much of a problem.
Bad solution. There are thousands of coalmine fires burning today, some of which have been burning for hundreds of years, that firefighters can't put out.
"Firelighters"

:bored:
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Re: Burning coal - my solution to the problem.

Post by Seth » Sat Aug 08, 2015 11:19 pm

JimC wrote:
Seth wrote:
mistermack wrote:My solution to the "burning coal" problem is firelighters.

Although I've never found it much of a problem.
Bad solution. There are thousands of coalmine fires burning today, some of which have been burning for hundreds of years, that firefighters can't put out.
"Firelighters"

:bored:
Oops...Gack! :fp:

I think "firelighters" is supposed to be two words, dammit!
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

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Re: Burning coal - my solution to the problem.

Post by mistermack » Sun Aug 09, 2015 3:24 am

Seth wrote:
JimC wrote:
Seth wrote:
mistermack wrote:My solution to the "burning coal" problem is firelighters.

Although I've never found it much of a problem.
Bad solution. There are thousands of coalmine fires burning today, some of which have been burning for hundreds of years, that firefighters can't put out.
"Firelighters"

:bored:
Oops...Gack! :fp:

I think "firelighters" is supposed to be two words, dammit!
Somebody should tell Tesco.
http://www.tesco.com/groceries/product/ ... =261204452
While there is a market for shit, there will be assholes to supply it.

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