Mass Explained By Someone who knows about Science

[PsychoSerenity]

mmm Boredom, strategy, expanding planets, denial...

Whats an everyday human suppose to make of it all ?

[colubridae]

mmm Boredom, strategy, expanding planets, denial...

Whats an everyday human suppose to make of it all ?

Nope still bored

You insults don't seem to be getting to me.

[Brain Man]

right back on topic .. never mind boredom...Ok you win now im rattled.

science and misrepresentation of good theories as denial strategy. Sorry were we talking about sex. Ill come back to that later.

I am fascinated by scientific theories that are on the fringe, they aren't pseudoscience, they have academic proponents yet are still rejected..it would seem because they are big complex theories. They require a radical rethink by a community and worst of all they require a major shift of resources away from other areas.

Another person is taking on the mantle of Aquatic ape and points out how the theory is continually misrepresented when it is tackled academically.

http://www.riverapes.com/


Is it laziness or the need to protect what you have learned in conjunction or the self interest of having your own areas of interest. Or some combination. I don't think its belief at all. What else can explain the strategy of taking action only to misrepresent ? If you believe in something you tend to do more than just misrepresent somebody else's work. Misrepresentation is more of a cold blooded denial strategy.

[lpetrich]

(Problem with Rodinia - Pangaea rearrangement...)

It depends what version of expanding earth theory you are using, how you are interpreting it, and where you got your own geological data from. As Maxlow points out much of the present model is just arbitrary fragments using outdated and inconsistent methods of collecting data.

Like what?

Mainstream geologists have looked for evidence of expansion, by doing paleomagnetism studies of rocks deposited at about the same time on different places in a continental block. To date, such results have been consistent with no change in size.

There's also the problem that an expanding Earth would stretch the edges of the plates apart -- we don't see any of the appropriate rifting there.

The earth's core - Google Books lists several such tests.

There is another VERY serious problem with the expanding-Earth hypothesis: what happens to the Sun? ...

I dont see how, maxlows model only applies to mechanism of the planetary bodies, and not the sun.

However, that imposes some strong constraints on the mechanism of this expansion. How would Maxlow's mechanism of matter production work in the Earth but not in the Sun or other stars?

[quote="Brain Man"}e.g. Maxlow cannot prove the expanding earth, because he has no access to the resources to do so.[/quote]
What would he need? He ought to write out in detail what he would need to test his hypothesis.

You get the idea.. When you think about it, these are major things we ought to know about ourselves. Did our earth grow, was our species partly immersed in water > are these two theories linked ?

The aquatic-ape theory? Since the expanding-Earth advocates propose an expansion of a factor of 2 over 200 million years, and this aquatic-ape phase took place around 2 million years ago, there was a 1% expansion in that time, which would not have made much of a difference.

The geologists don't ask the question.."wait a minute...why do all the parts of our planet fit so neatly back to one piece"...

Geologists do ask such questions. They may not come up with answers that you like. They don't simply use jigsaw fits; they look for similar rock formations.

The anthropologists don't ask the question, why do humans have so many physiological attributes of water based life.

Wikipedia's article on the aquatic-ape hypothesis contains lots of criticisms of it, so why accept it uncritically?

I think i would trust these scientists more if they actually said something like "its certainly interesting how all these land masses wind back into each other in line with the ocean floor spreading....we should have a look into this, to understand how, even if its a co-incidence, it could have major implications for our understanding."

Neither the expanding-Earth nor the aquatic-ape hypotheses are very plausible, so your conclusion is unsupportable.

DO you ever see this happening. Never...all you will see is some scientists go into auto protect our data mode, while the rest don't care really. We get by on what we have, and thats enough. Thats why it took as so long after the evolution of language to even get to this point.

So they are nothing but orthodox oxen, right?

[colubridae]

What else can explain the strategy of taking action only to misrepresent ? If you believe in something you tend to do more than just misrepresent somebody else's work. Misrepresentation is more of a cold blooded denial strategy.

No one is mis-representing anyone.

Produce a testable falsifiable prediction. Then try it. That's all.

[lpetrich]

On his website he says that, "Earth radius has been increasing exponentially throughout time, increasing to a current rate of 22mm/year." This is something that should be detectable given the lunar ranging observations that have been available for 40 years now. But it's not detected.

Its not a precise theory. The expansion by the mechanisms he proposed may not be linear across time.

What an effect - it so conveniently hides from us.

As to continent fits, some sorts of fit are relatively trivial.

I'm disappointed that Mr. Maxlow has not published his continent-outline data or his continent-deformation algorithm. I have plenty of computer capability and I could easily check his simulations.

[Brain Man]

(Problem with Rodinia - Pangaea rearrangement...)

It depends what version of expanding earth theory you are using, how you are interpreting it, and where you got your own geological data from. As Maxlow points out much of the present model is just arbitrary fragments using outdated and inconsistent methods of collecting data.

Like what?
Mainstream geologists have looked for evidence of expansion, by doing paleomagnetism studies of rocks deposited at about the same time on different places in a continental block. To date, such results have been consistent with no change in size.

Wait a minute ipetrich didnt i see you on this thread earlier today as well when i posted these videos ? and coming back later with information. Dont tell me you are another read then go and find denial data. I hope not, and would rather that you have already been here, took a look and thought "oh no not expanding earth again !!" and left

in the case of Plate tectonics, published plate reconstructions have never been constrained by the requirements of conforming to this data. In M.'s reconstructions, by contrast, since there is only one fit option at each stage, the paleomagnetic data can then act as an independent test of consistency. The resulting models can then be tested for consistency with a host of other data sets. So he provides a means to test. But nobody does.

There's also the problem that an expanding Earth would stretch the edges of the plates apart -- we don't see any of the appropriate rifting there.

The earth's core - Google Books lists several such tests.

That critique really says that there is no evidence, and bases its summary finding on the hypothesis that there is no expansion in mass.

Regarding magnetic data from maxlow himself

"Ancient Magnet Poles
The published ancient magnetic pole information (the location of ancient magnetic poles established from measuring the remnant magnetism in iron-rich rocks) in particular provides conclusive evidence in support of Expansion Tectonics. When this magnetic pole data is plotted on Expansion Tectonic models it demonstrates that all pole data plot as diametrically opposed north and south poles for each model.

These models show that the ancient North Pole was located in eastern Mongolia-China throughout the Precambrian and Paleozoic Eras. As the continents slowly migrated south, during subsequent increase in Earth radius, there was an apparent northward polar wander through Siberia to its present location within the Arctic Ocean. Similarly, the ancient Precambrian and Paleozoic South Pole was located in west central Africa, and, as the continents slowly migrated north, there was an apparent southward polar wander along the South American and West African coastlines to its present location in Antarctica.

The locations of these magnetic poles, as well as the derived ancient equators, independently confirm the model reconstructions shown in Figure 3 and again suggest that Expansion Tectonics is indeed a viable process."

There is another VERY serious problem with the expanding-Earth hypothesis: what happens to the Sun? ...

I dont see how, maxlows model only applies to mechanism of the planetary bodies, and not the sun.[/quote]
However, that imposes some strong constraints on the mechanism of this expansion. How would Maxlow's mechanism of matter production work in the Earth but not in the Sun or other stars?

He proposes quite a few methods of matter production that would not apply to the sun.

"What is causing the Earth to expand?
The entire question as to where the additional mass comes from to explain an increase in Earth radius is a very important core issue to Expansion Tectonics, but a very difficult question to answer. Because the Earth has always been considered the same size since creation; from either a cosmological or religious point of view, it has not been necessary to ask this question. Because the question has not been asked, or taken seriously, where the additional mass comes from remains speculative.

Since the theory of Earth expansion was first proposed in the late 1890s, five main re-occurring themes for the cause of Earth expansion have been suggested. These can be summarized as:

A pulsating Earth, where cyclic expansion of the Earth is said to have opened the oceans and contractions have caused orogenesis (mountain building). This proposal fails to satisfy exponential expansion, as shown by modern oceanic mapping, and Professor Carey considered the theme to have arisen from the false misconception that mountain building implies crustal contraction. In addition, Carey saw no compelling evidence for intermittent contractions of the Earth.
Meteoric and asteroid accretion. This is currently a popular theory, proposed also to explain some of the various extinction events that have plagued the Earth. It basically says expansion is caused by an accumulation of extraterrestrial debris over time. This theme was rejected by Carey as the primary cause of Earth expansion, since expansion should then decrease exponentially with time, not increase as shown by the oceanic mapping. Nor does it explain ocean floor spreading, or the distribution of oceanic crust or covering sediments.
Constant Earth mass, with phase changes of an originally super-dense core. This was again rejected by Carey as the main cause of Earth expansion because the theme implied too large a surface gravity throughout the Precambrian to Late Paleozoic Eras. A large Precambrian surface gravity was not evident from studies carried out during the 1970s. For a constant Earth mass, density would have also been unacceptably high during the Precambrian.
Secular reduction of the universal gravitation constant G. Such a decline of G was said to cause expansion through the release of elastic compressional energy throughout the Earth, and phase changes to lower densities in the mantle. Carey rejected this proposal as the main cause of expansion for three reasons: (a) formerly the surface gravity would have been unacceptably high, (b) the magnitude of expansion is probably too small, and (c) the arguments for such a reduction in G were considered not to indicate an exponential rate of increase in radius.
A cosmological cause involving a secular increase in the mass of the Earth. This suggestion remains the most popular theme.

Where the required excess mass came from was considered at length by Professor Carey. Knowing Einstein’s equation E=mc2 implies that matter and energy are inter-convertible. Matter is therefore the antithesis of energy where matter is created from energy and vise versa. Carey further considered that new mass added to the Earth must appear deep within the core. But, he also considered the ultimate cause of Earth expansion must be sought in the cosmological expansion and complementary generation of new matter processes within the entire Universe.

The proposed causal model for Expansion Tectonics, while still largely speculative, involves an increase in mass by condensation, or segregation of new matter from energy within the Earths core. This new matter accumulates at the core-mantle interface and the increase in volume results in swelling of the mantle. Mantle swell is then manifested in the outer crust as crustal extension and is currently occurring as extension along the mid-ocean-rift zones. Matter generation within the Earths core is seen as an endothermic reaction, which will ultimately result in a decay of matter formation in the core and cessation of expansion with time."

What would he need? He ought to write out in detail what he would need to test his hypothesis.

He has, so far nobody has taken up his offer. In science once a theory has been discarded whether for good or bad reason, it is doubly hard to reapproach it. Kind of like trying a court case twice. Something in human psychology doesn't like revisiting something once higher judgement has been passed. This facet of psychology is utilized all the time in law, business and the media.

The aquatic-ape theory? Since the expanding-Earth advocates propose an expansion of a factor of 2 over 200 million years, and this aquatic-ape phase took place around 2 million years ago, there was a 1% expansion in that time, which would not have made much of a difference.

Well i was just guessing. I dont know the expansion time line. There could be fits and starts. That aspect is not important. At the end of the day how do all the parts of earth fit so neatly back together and pangea looks ridiculous when animated in 4 dimensions. Why not try to answer that.

Geologists do ask such questions. They may not come up with answers that you like. They don't simply use jigsaw fits; they look for similar rock formations.

Do they ? Where is the wealth of objectively resourced investigation into this theory. All i see so far are some people trying to make their careers by tearing the theory apart. Again its the old game theory problem, unless there is a win win situation for a scientific theory i.e. expanding earth, only a rare breed will propose it. Thats why we were happy with a flat earth. It was only when we had an application and large group need i.e. Navigation and sea travel, did anybody care to think the planet was round. I think this is how we are today. People are people, science hasnt changed that. Why are you motivated to take this theory apart. Dont you find it interesting how it all fits back so neatly. Come on now be honest..

The anthropologists don't ask the question, why do humans have so many physiological attributes of water based life.

Wikipedia's article on the aquatic-ape hypothesis contains lots of criticisms of it, so why accept it uncritically?[/quote]

I have i went into all this previously. Aquatic ape is a complex theory, so cannot be falsified easily. Many flaws are found by academics on the first sitting or review of the theory. That is when they could really be bothered to deal with it, because it was getting promoted by Desmond Morris. Flaws are found and the theory misrepresented with a load of strawmen, while many objections are not tackled. i.e. The primary central questions. Its like the expanding earth theory. You will go off and cite this and that piece of data for a 2 dimensional pangea, but where is you answer for the four dimensional representation. You dont have one. Its all a co-incidence..right ?

What do these critics have in common is a shut the theory up job so we can get on with doing other things, that we like and get grants for. Thats modern science, thats how it works today. Everybody knows this is going on. I have experience inside here. I see it..its all about a pie divided into money, jobs and maybe a nice press write up on proving some small aspect of your peers work. Who do you know approaches anything contraversial anymore ? Its like suddenly we know everything about everything. Im not buying it.

I think i would trust these scientists more if they actually said something like "its certainly interesting how all these land masses wind back into each other in line with the ocean floor spreading....we should have a look into this, to understand how, even if its a co-incidence, it could have major implications for our understanding."

Neither the expanding-Earth nor the aquatic-ape hypotheses are very plausible, so your conclusion is unsupportable.

Interesting you are avoiding the winding back part again by repeating mantras. Just like most geologists do. They completely ignore how to explain this.

DO you ever see this happening. Never...all you will see is some scientists go into auto protect our data mode, while the rest don't care really. We get by on what we have, and thats enough. Thats why it took as so long after the evolution of language to even get to this point.

So they are nothing but orthodox oxen, right?

You said it, not me. I think lazy is a better word.

[Brain Man]

On his website he says that, "Earth radius has been increasing exponentially throughout time, increasing to a current rate of 22mm/year." This is something that should be detectable given the lunar ranging observations that have been available for 40 years now. But it's not detected.

Its not a precise theory. The expansion by the mechanisms he proposed may not be linear across time.

What an effect - it so conveniently hides from us.

As to continent fits, some sorts of fit are relatively trivial.

I'm disappointed that Mr. Maxlow has not published his continent-outline data or his continent-deformation algorithm. I have plenty of computer capability and I could easily check his simulations.

How do you know, have you looked ?

[ChildInAZoo]

I'm not ignoring it. I am just not placing all my confidence in maxlow to figure it all out.

I am neither confident in the community of geologists, as they do nothing to explain how the continent pieces fit together so well in line with the ocean floor expansion, and just show reactivity over small points rather than interest in trying to explain this.

I cannot be confident in a single proponent to present every answer, as they do not have the resources to do so.

So no solution in sight. Maybe its the certainty the attracts people to old information.

So rather than accept that an available theory that at least approximately fits the available historical data, you are going to advocate a theory that makes incorrect predictions about what is going on right now?

[Twiglet]

I have to wonder if this expanding earth thing is climate change denial by stealth.

After all, the rising ocean levels are a sign the atmosphere is heating up, because water expands with temperature...

But heck, hang on! NOOOOooo!!!! Look!! Imagine!! It's the ***Earth*** which is expanding, not the oceans. Now it all makes *such sense*. And goodness...! In fact the climate is *not* heating up. Now "prove me wrong"...

Yup, I think I've seen this approach somewhere before.

[Brain Man]

I'm not ignoring it. I am just not placing all my confidence in maxlow to figure it all out.

I am neither confident in the community of geologists, as they do nothing to explain how the continent pieces fit together so well in line with the ocean floor expansion, and just show reactivity over small points rather than interest in trying to explain this.

I cannot be confident in a single proponent to present every answer, as they do not have the resources to do so.

So no solution in sight. Maybe its the certainty the attracts people to old information.

So rather than accept that an available theory that at least approximately fits the available historical data, you are going to advocate a theory that makes incorrect predictions about what is going on right now?

Maxlows model uses more up to date data than Plate tectonics, and he is waiting for tectonics to catch up.

You are avoiding the central issue here, and I notice everybody avoids this which is extremely telling.

Again...why does the maxlow model work better in 4 dimensions with more up to date paleomagnetic data than the tectonics model ?

This is what i am finding fascinating about all of this. Clearly in all 4 dimensions you can see the expansion model works, yet clearly its denied. If nobody offers a reasonable explanation, for how this is so, that is better than its all a co-incidence, then i am sorry i do not care what data you throw regarding this and that bit of out of context strawman, I cannot take you seriously as a credible thinker.

Are you afraid, come on what did you think when you first saw the animation. Be honest now ?

You have to explain how the model works in 4 dimensions. The whole thing, how it all fits together like that. Perfectly along the ocean floor. All 4 dimensions space and motion/time.

[Brain Man]

I have to wonder if this expanding earth thing is climate change denial by stealth.

After all, the rising ocean levels are a sign the atmosphere is heating up, because water expands with temperature...

But heck, hang on! NOOOOooo!!!! Look!! Imagine!! It's the ***Earth*** which is expanding, not the oceans. Now it all makes *such sense*. And goodness...! In fact the climate is *not* heating up. Now "prove me wrong"...

Yup, I think I've seen this approach somewhere before.

Right twiglet you as well. This has to be a game of course. Come on..how does the earth manage to wind back so smoothly into one piece across all four dimensions ?

Actually this says it all, why we arent making major progress, because twiglet seems the most honest here, but he clearly doesnt have the motivation. There is no gain for reaching to new knowlegde. Its a low payoff.

This is why human progress is crawlingly slow. We have fits and starts of innovation, then it settles down to dividing up the pie for another 300 years while we sink into computers and let social consensus run our lives. This is the reality i must accept, we are mostly lazy bastards who want social or material payoff before we fire up our brains.

ah well your loss guys, I guess it doesnt really matter your descendent's will be giggling at us for taking so long to twig.

"What you mean it took 100 years after the release of neal adams animation for them to finally realise planets are built on expansion..Wow...our grandparents were so slow and pedantic back then..but then it couldnt be helped, they didnt have artificial intelligence to help them think properly and had to make do with science..."".....but look our records show that "brain man" from the internet forum rationalia fought for this idea in June 2010. Lets grow a population from his DNA records and see what a town full of people with his forward looking vision can do for us now...Maybe his mutations are the correct cocktail of mental attributes we need to cure backwards vision in the human condition"

[Twiglet]

I have to wonder if this expanding earth thing is climate change denial by stealth.

After all, the rising ocean levels are a sign the atmosphere is heating up, because water expands with temperature...

But heck, hang on! NOOOOooo!!!! Look!! Imagine!! It's the ***Earth*** which is expanding, not the oceans. Now it all makes *such sense*. And goodness...! In fact the climate is *not* heating up. Now "prove me wrong"...

Yup, I think I've seen this approach somewhere before.

Right twiglet you as well. This has to be a game of course. Come on..how does the earth manage to wind back so smoothly into one piece across all four dimensions ?

Actually this says it all, why we arent making major progress, because twiglet seems the most honest here, but he clearly doesnt have the motivation. There is no gain for reaching to new knowlegde. Its a low payoff.

This is why human progress is crawlingly slow. We have fits and starts of innovation, then it settles down to dividing up the pie for another 300 years while we sink into computers and let social consensus run our lives. This is the reality i must accept, we are mostly lazy bastards who want social or material payoff before we fire up our brains.

ah well your loss guys, I guess it doesnt really matter your descendents will be giggling at us for taking so long to twig.

"What you mean it took 100 years after the release of neal adams animation for them to finally realise planets are built on expansion..Wow...our grandparents were so slow and pedantic back then..but then it couldnt be helped, they didnt have artificial intelligence to help them think properly and had to make do with science..."

Yes, it's all a conspiracy and willful laziness and stupidity on the part of all geologists. Wow look! This "independent thinker" has all the answers. Let's all jump on the bandwagon and condemn anyone who doesn't for being intellectually lazy. That'll work.

I have little to no intellectual investment in the theory of plate techtonics, I'm merely aware of it. My day would be just as bright if a new idea came along and replaced it. I just don't happen to be especially convinced by Walt-Disney type animations with voiceovers which don't disclose source data. Doubtless it's "too secret and sensitive" and "Intellectual property", and I'm "just being dismissive".

You do seem to like to attach yourself to ideas where you don't have to prove anything or know anything Brainman. Just so long as you have the opportunity to beat the drum and complain about how scientists are all sheep. I note that you, like farsight, have steered well clear of Jims science problem thread. Not even attempted a single problem there. Maybe you just don't want your "clear conceptual understanding" clouded by nasty maths and evil predictions?

[ChildInAZoo]

Maxlows model uses more up to date data than Plate tectonics, and he is waiting for tectonics to catch up.

You are avoiding the central issue here, and I notice everybody avoids this which is extremely telling.

What could be more central to his claim that "the Earth is expanding" than our actual measurements that could detect the expansion that he actually predicts right now don't detect this expansion? The Earth is obviously not expanding as much as he claims it is. That itself should be enough to rule out his theory.

Again...why does the maxlow model work better in 4 dimensions with more up to date paleomagnetic data than the tectonics model ?

If his model fits better, it could be because he has added extra parameters to guarantee a better fit. Or it could be because he manipulated parameters to get a better fit for a choice set of parameters at the cost of not actually fitting all the parameters. The most important parameter should probably be the prediction of the current rate of expansion!

[Brain Man]

I have to wonder if this expanding earth thing is climate change denial by stealth.

After all, the rising ocean levels are a sign the atmosphere is heating up, because water expands with temperature...

But heck, hang on! NOOOOooo!!!! Look!! Imagine!! It's the ***Earth*** which is expanding, not the oceans. Now it all makes *such sense*. And goodness...! In fact the climate is *not* heating up. Now "prove me wrong"...

Yup, I think I've seen this approach somewhere before.

Right twiglet you as well. This has to be a game of course. Come on..how does the earth manage to wind back so smoothly into one piece across all four dimensions ?

Actually this says it all, why we arent making major progress, because twiglet seems the most honest here, but he clearly doesnt have the motivation. There is no gain for reaching to new knowlegde. Its a low payoff.

This is why human progress is crawlingly slow. We have fits and starts of innovation, then it settles down to dividing up the pie for another 300 years while we sink into computers and let social consensus run our lives. This is the reality i must accept, we are mostly lazy bastards who want social or material payoff before we fire up our brains.

ah well your loss guys, I guess it doesnt really matter your descendents will be giggling at us for taking so long to twig.

"What you mean it took 100 years after the release of neal adams animation for them to finally realise planets are built on expansion..Wow...our grandparents were so slow and pedantic back then..but then it couldnt be helped, they didnt have artificial intelligence to help them think properly and had to make do with science..."

Yes, it's all a conspiracy and willful laziness and stupidity on the part of all geologists. Wow look! This "independent thinker" has all the answers. Let's all jump on the bandwagon and condemn anyone who doesn't for being intellectually lazy. That'll work.

I have little to no intellectual investment in the theory of plate techtonics, I'm merely aware of it. My day would be just as bright if a new idea came along and replaced it. I just don't happen to be especially convinced by Walt-Disney type animations with voiceovers which don't disclose source data. Doubtless it's "too secret and sensitive" and "Intellectual property", and I'm "just being dismissive".

You do seem to like to attach yourself to ideas where you don't have to prove anything or know anything Brainman. Just so long as you have the opportunity to beat the drum and complain about how scientists are all sheep. I note that you, like farsight, have steered well clear of Jims science problem thread. Not even attempted a single problem there. Maybe you just don't want your "clear conceptual understanding" clouded by nasty maths and evil predictions?

Come on twiglet stop avoiding the question as to how all the plates fit so neatly back across the ocean floor line.

I wasnt aware of that thread. I hope its not sitting doing maths for a day, then scanning it to prove how clever we are instead of tackling a major problem. I actually do have scientific problems to prove, about three papers to complete, and these are massively complex theories, I only wish a few equations could prove them. Ok there is no deadline, but lately i am wondering does anybody actually deserve such works. If the community is heading towards being lazy, groupish and dishonest behaviours why should i bother. If they dont care, why should I. There is no payoff. Even if the work does well which it seems to be doing, i dont see why i should bother. All i seem to be getting so far is higher social status and a better job. Some people would kill for that kind of thing. I know that, but I never got into science for that reason. I got into it, to be with other innovators. But where are they ? Everybody i know in this business is obsessed with social rank and money.