Starfleet Game thread

[Bilirubin]

Eventually you'll either stop or people will realise that. I can't tell the difference between your town flail and your scum flail. But that's just the adjustment that you, and we, have to make.

Totally disagreed. Town lowering their standards and accommodating really poor players is a worse outcome for the long term health of the game than really poor players who just don't get mafia simply quitting.

I'm not having a go at anyone in particular, and I have not played here long enough to even begin to form an opinion of who is good and bad. But seriously, town sets the standard, and it town's standards are high the games will be better.

[Bilirubin]

Eventually you'll either stop or people will realise that. I can't tell the difference between your town flail and your scum flail. But that's just the adjustment that you, and we, have to make.

Totally disagreed. Town lowering their standards and accommodating really poor players is a worse outcome for the long term health of the game than really poor players who just don't get mafia simply quitting.

I'm not having a go at anyone in particular, and I have not played here long enough to even begin to form an opinion of who is good and bad. But seriously, town sets the standard, and it town's standards are high the games will be better.

And before anybody ways anything, I have argued this very point at TR many times.

[Uselesstwit]

also diva it's what your fourth game or so? Playing a strong town game is hard, much harder than being scum. Even when you learn how you'll still mess up like i did this game. a good thing to do is go back thru the game and reread it keeping who was who in mind.

[irretating]

I say just play one really good game and then rest on those laurels forever, no matter how crap you become.

Dune mafia, anyone?

[irretating]

Eventually you'll either stop or people will realise that. I can't tell the difference between your town flail and your scum flail. But that's just the adjustment that you, and we, have to make.

Totally disagreed. Town lowering their standards and accommodating really poor players is a worse outcome for the long term health of the game than really poor players who just don't get mafia simply quitting.

I'm not having a go at anyone in particular, and I have not played here long enough to even begin to form an opinion of who is good and bad. But seriously, town sets the standard, and it town's standards are high the games will be better.

And before anybody ways anything, I have argued this very point at TR many times.

How would you address the issue of players who know to stay pretty quiet and let the lynch be one of the more vocal players?

[Bilirubin]

diva I dunno if you would have been the lynch on day 2. maybe.

People lynch vote for a lot of reasons besides wanting to get someone lynched right now this minute today. It's how a player reacts to being voted, and how they react to being questioned that usually determines how things go from there.

Then it is rather pointless to continue to play on this site since my alignment has little to do with why people lynch vote me. I tried to react differently and you accused me of copying Ksen's style. As if.

If you can't handle being voted upon when not scum then perhaps mafia isn't for you. If however you learn how to handle suspicion, and figure out why people are voting for you (dropped tell, pressure, test the waters for a scum lynch, etc), then take your heart off your sleeve and start paying attention, taking notes, etc. I'd even be willing to coach you in a game sometime, if you could deal with me not being around 24/7.

Is this the second mafia ragequit of the game? Is that a record?

This post makes me want to piss while standing up.

I am being FOSed on day 1 by the same people regardless of my alignment or theirs.

What you call spreading the seeds, I call poisoning the well. But then you are a boy so you get the "excellent player" added to yours.

STFU Ob, you know that you are a superb player and town needs you (when you are town). Is this what you wanted to hear? Because I truly mean it.

You quit playing on TR because you became a legend. Yep...I have read the threads. Do you really want to be treated the same here? Maybe you do and maybe you don't. I am going with you don't.

I don't think you knew that Ksen was scum...I think you figured it was me. I think that you would have advocated for my lynching. That is town trail-baiting, which I hope not to see here because it tends to marginalise newer and weaker players.

I think that your scumdar is off when you are not in your element.

OK, going to try to answer this line for line.

You are being FoSed because you keep making the same mistakes regardless of your alignment (so nobody can tell because of variation in your play there), and regardless of their alignment (because as town they can't tell, and as scum you are an easy lynch target).

"Spreading the seeds"? WTF are you talking about? I never said such a thing. Stop projecting your own insecurities onto others. I am not called an "excellent player" anywhere AFAIK, certainly not because of the status of my pisser. I had a few good games at TR, then quit because to play well too way too much of my time. I don't have a long enough track record to be considered "excellent". I am observant of human behaviour, and this helps in mafia and in poker. But yes, standing to pee is awesome after a few pints.

Protip: raven is a good player, but superb? I haven't met one of those. Her game skews in a particular direction that is totally exploitable. damian was readable once you knew what to look for, although unpredictable enough to make driving a vote onto him difficult in the best of times. halii was more readable but just as dangerous. Tenuous and cockrell are more difficult players to read. Luis Garcia is probably the best player of the TR crowd IMO, but I've only seen him in action twice, and his angle is to avoid committing any time, which is antitown play. And I am ridiculously easy to knock off my game.

She did not quit TR mafia. Legend? Really? Who built that legend, and why? Everybody she mentored?

And her scumdar was off because 1) townies can't stop dropping scum tells which ups the noise:signal, 2) we manipulated that, and 3) she's been playing too long without people to kick her ass when she needed it.

[Adenosine]

I say just play one really good game and then rest on those laurels forever, no matter how crap you become.

Dune mafia, anyone?

or Nancy Drew.

[Bilirubin]

Eventually you'll either stop or people will realise that. I can't tell the difference between your town flail and your scum flail. But that's just the adjustment that you, and we, have to make.

Totally disagreed. Town lowering their standards and accommodating really poor players is a worse outcome for the long term health of the game than really poor players who just don't get mafia simply quitting.

I'm not having a go at anyone in particular, and I have not played here long enough to even begin to form an opinion of who is good and bad. But seriously, town sets the standard, and it town's standards are high the games will be better.

And before anybody ways anything, I have argued this very point at TR many times.

How would you address the issue of players who know to stay pretty quiet and let the lynch be one of the more vocal players?

Lynch the quiet ones.

[Bilirubin]

Eventually you'll either stop or people will realise that. I can't tell the difference between your town flail and your scum flail. But that's just the adjustment that you, and we, have to make.

Totally disagreed. Town lowering their standards and accommodating really poor players is a worse outcome for the long term health of the game than really poor players who just don't get mafia simply quitting.

I'm not having a go at anyone in particular, and I have not played here long enough to even begin to form an opinion of who is good and bad. But seriously, town sets the standard, and it town's standards are high the games will be better.

And before anybody ways anything, I have argued this very point at TR many times.

How would you address the issue of players who know to stay pretty quiet and let the lynch be one of the more vocal players?

Lynch the quiet ones.

Oh, and also, cut the irrelevant chatter. That just gives scum a smoke screen to hide within.

[divagreen]

OK, going to try to answer this line for line.

You are being FoSed because you keep making the same mistakes regardless of your alignment (so nobody can tell because of variation in your play there), and regardless of their alignment (because as town they can't tell, and as scum you are an easy lynch target).

I am being FOSed by the same people. Did you catch that? They are bound to be right 1/3 of the time, eh?

It goes back to my feeling that this site is cliquish.

"Spreading the seeds"? WTF are you talking about? I never said such a thing.

Yes you did. In response to Ob's post.

bilirubin maintained vote on DennyB after the gritwagon took off. If he is scum, he may have expected that bandwagon'sdisintegrateion, or he may have expected some town credibility accrual from keeping his vote on a player likely to be lynched tomorrow. he additionally asked a plethora of questions about the writeboards when grit's link became an issue, which I associate with his thoroughgoing town game. I point these observations out because bilirubin was an excellent player both as town and as scum when he still played at talkrational. I may predecease him, so I want to make my thoughts known now.

Stop projecting your own insecurities onto others. I am not called an "excellent player" anywhere AFAIK, certainly not because of the status of my pisser. I had a few good games at TR, then quit because to play well too way too much of my time. I don't have a long enough track record to be considered "excellent". I am observant of human behaviour, and this helps in mafia and in poker. But yes, standing to pee is awesome after a few pints.

What I learned from the above is that I should learn how to pee while standing up.

Protip: raven is a good player, but superb? I haven't met one of those. Her game skews in a particular direction that is totally exploitable. damian was readable once you knew what to look for, although unpredictable enough to make driving a vote onto him difficult in the best of times. halii was more readable but just as dangerous. Tenuous and cockrell are more difficult players to read. Luis Garcia is probably the best player of the TR crowd IMO, but I've only seen him in action twice, and his angle is to avoid committing any time, which is antitown play. And I am ridiculously easy to knock off my game.

I guess I should ignore these statements:

game could use a few more players.

I'll be helping run it.

I'm not going to play because there is nowhere to go but down.

She did not quit TR mafia. Legend? Really? Who built that legend, and why? Everybody she mentored?

And her scumdar was off because 1) townies can't stop dropping scum tells which ups the noise:signal, 2) we manipulated that, and 3) she's been playing too long without people to kick her ass when she needed it.

I can't tell if you are simply obtuse or you are ignoring the elephant in the room. I actually agree with the above points though.

Whatever. I know my place in the food chain.

[oblivion]

LOL, at least that clears up a mystery.

Did you read those game instructions, diva? it's not a mafia game. not even vaguely. Luis Garcia ran the game once at TR about a year ago. I won't play it again because it was annoying, paranoia making, and affected my posting all over the site. the "nowhere to go but down" comment was just a joke, because some of the players from the last game wanted a rematch. Luis asked if I'd run it this time because he got too busy IRL and I agreed.

At least that clears up your comment about my quitting mafia. I had no idea how you had gotten that impression.

And no, I'm not a legend. bili didn't say anythng about my mafia game that I don't already know. I've said as much, myself.

[grit]

also diva it's what your fourth game or so? Playing a strong town game is hard, much harder than being scum. Even when you learn how you'll still mess up like i did this game. a good thing to do is go back thru the game and reread it keeping who was who in mind.

Damn it, Jim, she's a poetic, cat-loving android of order and logic, not a brick-layer!
(I'm sorry, it had to be said.)

[grit]

diva, people are suspicious of you because you flail under pressure, regardless of your alignment. Eventually you'll either stop or people will realise that. I can't tell the difference between your town flail and your scum flail. But that's just the adjustment that you, and we, have to make. Same with the Ob sus of ksen thing, the Ob-Irre mutual distrust/trust society, Jerome being erratic as hell and th1nk3r not playing. Everyone plays by their own rules.

Man, severe deja vu, typing to diva while Irre x-posts that she doesn't drink alcohol.

Totally disagreed. Town lowering their standards and accommodating really poor players is a worse outcome for the long term health of the game than really poor players who just don't get mafia simply quitting.

I'm not having a go at anyone in particular, and I have not played here long enough to even begin to form an opinion of who is good and bad. But seriously, town sets the standard, and if town's standards are high the games will be better.

I'm going to mostly agree with Aden and only somewhat agree with Bili here. At Ratz I've only followed the Reservoir Dogs games, but at TR I know one of the things that hurts Town is the general application that flail is a Scum tell. As Aden alludes, flailing is logically natural of a player under pressure whether Town or Scum. It shouldn't be that a player flails that gets them lynched, but rather if the flail reveals a logical inconsistency with what else the player has posted, or is itself inconsistent with that player's usual Town play. That isn't a lowering of standards to accommodate poor play, but an acceptance of the natural layering of human complexity.

Is it easier for Town to identify Town without certain human complexities? Is it easier for Town when the game is simplified from flavourful WIFOM? It can be, but it may also simplify the game for scum; and as a game is more complex and more coloured by WIFOM, there is greater opportunity for logical inconsistencies and slip-ups by the scum team, individual scum, and indies, for the benefit of Town. It may work either way, toward a distraction of Town or a mythstep of Scum.

I agree that it's helpful for Town standards to be high, but there is an obvious variety in good Town play that individual townies bring to a game, whether it be "read" or "hunch" or "flawless logic" or "graphs and charts" or "percentages" or "annals of player histories" or "game flavour knowledge" or to some degree even "rivalries" or "grudges". For example, ob's and Aza's post restriction should certainly figure into future game(s), but though just how and why and where is indeed WIFOM, it is not beyond a helpfulness of Town, in combination with other game factors. Even seasoned players with all of the above need what the poorest other townie brings to the game in establishing a rightful trust and cooperation while weeding out misplaced trust and identifying those of an informed minority scum team.

[grit]

Lynch the quiet ones.

Oh, and also, cut the irrelevant chatter. That just gives scum a smoke screen to hide within.

I was taught that as well, and have been most inclined to follow through on it. But I know it does not work at TR and another site where I have played. Yes, quietness is generally anti-town and extraneous chatter often is a distraction toward rabbit holes and vain imaginings; but not when taken for what they plainly are. That one does not post does not certify that they are Scum, and that one chatters does not necessitate irrelevancy to Town or a helpful smoke screen for Scum - not when seen for what they are and pointed out as so for Town to weigh and consider.

Take irre's "Zen" comment, for example. That could have worked either way, as WIFOM for Scum, or a hidden Seer tell for Town. It wound up being the former, but Scum rightly put it on a back burner as just a bit of info of which to be aware. They didn't take it as gospel and run with it, though in a pinch they may rightly have done so and been wrong. Should irre have said it? The game could have as easily turned on it as other things, for either Town or Scum. Without it one may just as simply have posted, "I'm NOT the Seer, I'm Vanilla Town." - no smoke screen there for either side to hide within.

[gib]

diva you should accept bili's offer imho

ksen, not on the mouth please, there's a good chap!