The Mis-portrayal of Darwin as a Racist.

User avatar
Gawdzilla Sama
Stabsobermaschinist
Posts: 151265
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:24 am
About me: My posts are related to the thread in the same way Gliese 651b is related to your mother's underwear drawer.
Location: Sitting next to Ayaan in Domus Draconis, and communicating via PMs.
Contact:

Re: The Mis-portrayal of Darwin as a Racist.

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Wed Feb 22, 2012 11:33 am

Seth wrote:
apophenia wrote: Prior to Christ, Jews were not a persecuted minority.

Excuse me? What are you talking about? Jews have been a persecuted minority for about 3000 years before Christ. Have you forgotten that Pharaoh enslaved Moses and the Jews? Go read some actual history why doncha?
The Hebrews were just as obnoxious as any other tribe of Bedouins. So they got the same shit as any tribe of wandering goat-herders.

And there's no good evidence that the Hebrews were ever in Egypt in numbers large enough to be noticed. Go read some actual history why doncha?
Image
Ein Ubootsoldat wrote:“Ich melde mich ab. Grüssen Sie bitte meine Kameraden.”

Seth
GrandMaster Zen Troll
Posts: 22077
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2011 1:02 am
Contact:

Re: The Mis-portrayal of Darwin as a Racist.

Post by Seth » Wed Feb 22, 2012 6:28 pm

Gallstones wrote:The only reason Europeans--Brits--had an easy go of settling the New World is because the Spanish had already brought their diseases and those diseases killed off most of the native peoples earlier. AKA, there was no opposition because the opposition was dead.
Yup, so blame the Spanish. I'm fine with that.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

User avatar
Robert_S
Cookie Monster
Posts: 13416
Joined: Tue Feb 23, 2010 5:47 am
About me: Too young to die of boredom, too old to grow up.
Location: Illinois
Contact:

Re: The Mis-portrayal of Darwin as a Racist.

Post by Robert_S » Thu Feb 23, 2012 12:19 am

Seth wrote:
Gallstones wrote:The only reason Europeans--Brits--had an easy go of settling the New World is because the Spanish had already brought their diseases and those diseases killed off most of the native peoples earlier. AKA, there was no opposition because the opposition was dead.
Yup, so blame the Spanish. I'm fine with that.
That's racist!
What I've found with a few discussions I've had lately is this self-satisfaction that people express with their proffessed open mindedness. In realty it ammounts to wilful ignorance and intellectual cowardice as they are choosing to not form any sort of opinion on a particular topic. Basically "I don't know and I'm not going to look at any evidence because I'm quite happy on this fence."
-Mr P

The Net is best considered analogous to communication with disincarnate intelligences. As any neophyte would tell you. Do not invoke that which you have no facility to banish.
Audley Strange

Seth
GrandMaster Zen Troll
Posts: 22077
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2011 1:02 am
Contact:

Re: The Mis-portrayal of Darwin as a Racist.

Post by Seth » Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:49 pm

Robert_S wrote:
Seth wrote:
Gallstones wrote:The only reason Europeans--Brits--had an easy go of settling the New World is because the Spanish had already brought their diseases and those diseases killed off most of the native peoples earlier. AKA, there was no opposition because the opposition was dead.
Yup, so blame the Spanish. I'm fine with that.
That's racist!
"Spanish" is not a race, I'm afraid.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

User avatar
Drewish
I'm with stupid /\
Posts: 4705
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2009 6:31 pm
Contact:

Re: The Mis-portrayal of Darwin as a Racist.

Post by Drewish » Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:50 pm

So wait, does this mean that Jesus was a white man?
Nobody expects me...

Seth
GrandMaster Zen Troll
Posts: 22077
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2011 1:02 am
Contact:

Re: The Mis-portrayal of Darwin as a Racist.

Post by Seth » Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:51 pm

andrewclunn wrote:So wait, does this mean that Jesus was a white man?
"White" is not a race, I'm afraid.
"Seth is Grandmaster Zen Troll who trains his victims to troll themselves every time they think of him" Robert_S

"All that is required for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." Edmund Burke

"Those who support denying anyone the right to keep and bear arms for personal defense are fully complicit in every crime that might have been prevented had the victim been effectively armed." Seth

© 2013/2014/2015/2016 Seth, all rights reserved. No reuse, republication, duplication, or derivative work is authorized.

User avatar
Drewish
I'm with stupid /\
Posts: 4705
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2009 6:31 pm
Contact:

Re: The Mis-portrayal of Darwin as a Racist.

Post by Drewish » Thu Feb 23, 2012 9:53 pm

Seth wrote:
andrewclunn wrote:So wait, does this mean that Jesus was a white man?
"White" is not a race, I'm afraid.
Sure it is. I don't know who qualifies as 'white,' I just know that the Italians don't :biggrin:
Nobody expects me...

User avatar
Pappa
Non-Practicing Anarchist
Non-Practicing Anarchist
Posts: 56484
Joined: Wed Feb 18, 2009 10:42 am
About me: I am sacrificing a turnip as I type.
Location: Le sud du Pays de Galles.
Contact:

Re: The Mis-portrayal of Darwin as a Racist.

Post by Pappa » Thu Feb 23, 2012 10:27 pm

andrewclunn wrote:So wait, does this mean that Jesus was a white man?
For information on ways to help support Rationalia financially, see our funding page.


When the aliens do come, everything we once thought was cool will then make us ashamed.

User avatar
Ronja
Just Another Safety Nut
Posts: 10920
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 8:13 pm
About me: mother of 2 girls, married to fellow rat MiM, student (SW, HCI, ICT...) , self-employed editor/proofreader/translator
Location: Helsinki, Finland, EU
Contact:

Re: The Mis-portrayal of Darwin as a Racist.

Post by Ronja » Sun Mar 18, 2012 3:34 pm

Answers in Genesis makes a rather unsurprising pig's ear out of a book on Darwin that I have but have not yet gotten around to read: Darwin’s Sacred Cause, by Adrian Desmond and James Moore. Among the pearls of this "analysis" we find:
... In their efforts to rescue Darwin and evolution from its obvious racist implications, Desmond and Moore have tried to paint Darwin as the kindly humanitarian scientist, only seeking to release his fellow man from the bondage of oppression and ignorance. While their efforts are laudable, in the end their argument is not convincing, failing on several counts.

First, even if Darwin did intend to strike a blow at slavery by his concept of a common origin of the races, his proposal ultimately lent more “scientific” justification to the practice than was possible before. The resulting increase in racism is well-documented. Even the late evolutionist Stephen J. Gould noted, “Biological arguments for racism may have been common before 1859, but they increased by orders of magnitude following acceptance of evolutionary theory.”
So Darwin should have known beforehand that people with racist attitudes would try to use his findings and conclusions as an excuse for continued racism? And based on such pre-knowledge he should have prevented this from happening exactly how? :fp:
Second, a more basic question comes to mind. If man is just an animal, just a higher form of ape, present in the accidental world as a result of blind chance, then what is wrong with slavery? Isn’t slavery just a form of selection? Isn’t slavery just the stronger surviving at the expense of the weaker?
Not so fast: this looks a lot like trying to derive an ethical/moral "ought" from an observed "is", and that's a logical fallacy (the name of which I always forget).
Third, if the abolition of slavery to be accomplished on the basis of his new scientific worldview, was indeed the great issue in Darwin’s life, why is it only now coming into focus? As mentioned, Desmond and Moore authored one of the two definitive biographies of Darwin (the other being the two volume Charles Darwin by Janet Browne). In this work (as in Browne’s volumes) Darwin’s opposition to slavery was noted on occasion (his rift with Captain FitzRoy over slavery during the Beagle voyage, for example). It was not, however, presented as the driving force that it seems to be in this new book. Even in his own autobiography, Darwin himself does not dwell significantly on this issue. If Darwin was so wrapped up in his sacred cause, why has it taken so long to discover it?
For Pete's sake! If someone writes a book about a specific theme, OF COURSE that book will emphasize that particular theme more than previous books, which were not specifically about that theme. "Discover" indeed! :fp:
The Bible shows that men were fully human, all equal in God’s eyes from the beginning of the creation. None are lesser beings or transitional precursors. The biblical view allows us to see that the origin of racism and slavery is in the hearts of sinful man. Man’s inhumanity to man has existed from the Fall; however, there is no justification for it in a biblical worldview.
No? Guess you did not read your bible, then. Try e.g. Deuteronomy 13:2-19, Leviticus 25:44-46, Exodus 21:2-11, Ezekiel 9:5-7, Jeremiah 51:20-26, Isaiah 13:15-18, 1 Samuel 15:2-3, Romans 1:24-32, Ephesians 6:5 or 1 Timothy 6:1-2, just to name a few. :prof:
Darwin proponents will undoubtedly enjoy this book. They would welcome any opportunity to minimize or dismiss the racist implications of an evolutionary worldview. However, this alternative point of view comes at a cost. If the premise of the book is true, then Darwin is no longer the unbiased seeker of truth. If his hatred of slavery was a major driving force for Darwin, then the claim that the “facts speak for themselves” is invalid. Darwin’s interpretation of the evidence was colored by his preconceived ideas.

Here the double standard is evident. If the Bible is your starting point (your worldview) and you interpret your findings within that framework, then you are unscientific because you have a bias. However, Charles Darwin bringing his bias against slavery to the table as he “scientifically” examined the evidence seems to be perfectly acceptable here. Sounds like having your cake and eating it too.
And exactly how did Darwin MISinterpret the facts (or hide or downplay something pertinent, maybe?) due to his values? At least one example would help to make such a sweeping condemnation a little bit more interesting... :roll:
Darwin’s apologists have often suggested the Darwin was not racist and that he was only using the language of the day to describe these other ethnic groups. Somehow the “after all, everybody does it” argument seems rather shallow. It is more than a little inconsistent that he was so concerned about others and then would refer to them in these terms. One might ask: in what circumstances would you consider being called a “savage” anything less than derogatory?
What an extremely intelligent question to pose to someone living 150 years after the fact! I would call African-American people "blacks", if I still spoke the way my family did in Baltimore in the 1960s, and I that's only 50 years ago. My parents looked down on those people who spoke of "negroes", but a few decades before that had been quite OK and in general usage (read some Mark Twain to get an idea, for example). Furthermore, I would have continued to speak about "blacks" if I had not observed a change in the preferences of the American English environment. But somehow Darwin should have been "above" or ahead of the historical changes of language and capable of writing in a style that would be palatable for people 150 years later- ??? :fp:

Plenty more here: http://www.answersingenesis.org/article ... cred-cause
"The internet is made of people. People matter. This includes you. Stop trying to sell everything about yourself to everyone. Don’t just hammer away and repeat and talk at people—talk TO people. It’s organic. Make stuff for the internet that matters to you, even if it seems stupid. Do it because it’s good and feels important. Put up more cat pictures. Make more songs. Show your doodles. Give things away and take things that are free." - Maureen J

"...anyone who says it’s “just the Internet” can :pawiz: . And then when they come back, they can :pawiz: again." - Tigger

User avatar
apophenia
IN DAMNATIO MEMORIAE
Posts: 3373
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 7:41 am
About me: A bird without a feather, a gull without a sea, a flock without a shore.
Location: Farther. Always farther.
Contact:

Re: The Mis-portrayal of Darwin as a Racist.

Post by apophenia » Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:22 am




That's known as the is/ought fallacy, from David Hume. It's also referred to as the naturalistic fallacy, though as philosopher G.E. Moore referred to another, unrelated fallacy (having to do with ethics) as the naturalistic fallacy, it can be somewhat confusing.


Image

User avatar
Tyrannical
Posts: 6326
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2010 4:59 am
Contact:

Re: The Mis-portrayal of Darwin as a Racist.

Post by Tyrannical » Fri Apr 13, 2012 6:46 am

Darwin considered Blacks and Australian Aborigines less evolved and expected them to go extinct. Racial genocide is simply natural selection in action.
A rational skeptic should be able to discuss and debate anything, no matter how much they may personally disagree with that point of view. Discussing a subject is not agreeing with it, but understanding it.

User avatar
Gawdzilla Sama
Stabsobermaschinist
Posts: 151265
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:24 am
About me: My posts are related to the thread in the same way Gliese 651b is related to your mother's underwear drawer.
Location: Sitting next to Ayaan in Domus Draconis, and communicating via PMs.
Contact:

Re: The Mis-portrayal of Darwin as a Racist.

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Apr 13, 2012 11:22 am

Tyrannical wrote:Darwin considered Blacks and Australian Aborigines less evolved and expected them to go extinct. Racial genocide is simply natural selection in action.
Nonsense. Genocide is a human construct. Nature doesn't declare war on a single species, or on anything at all for that matter. The wolves in Yellowstone don't like coyotes, and will attack them if they get a chance, but they don't have wolf councils and declare that there must be a final solution for the coyote problem.
Image
Ein Ubootsoldat wrote:“Ich melde mich ab. Grüssen Sie bitte meine Kameraden.”

User avatar
Tyrannical
Posts: 6326
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2010 4:59 am
Contact:

Re: The Mis-portrayal of Darwin as a Racist.

Post by Tyrannical » Fri Apr 13, 2012 12:57 pm

Gawdzilla wrote:
Tyrannical wrote:Darwin considered Blacks and Australian Aborigines less evolved and expected them to go extinct. Racial genocide is simply natural selection in action.
Nonsense. Genocide is a human construct. Nature doesn't declare war on a single species, or on anything at all for that matter. The wolves in Yellowstone don't like coyotes, and will attack them if they get a chance, but they don't have wolf councils and declare that there must be a final solution for the coyote problem.
I hear all the time how invasive non-native species establishes itself and wipes out native populations. That happens with plants like kudzu, fungus like chestnut blight, fish like the snakehead fish, or mammals like a rat. Why consider humans different? Where is homoerectus, denisovan or neanderthal man? Did they die out on their own, or was their fate similar to Native Americans?

Human behavior changed radically post WWII when it came to how we treated less advanced cultures. If not for the shock that Hitler caused, minority "rights" might never have advanced. Given a few hundred years of pre-WWII behavior demographics would imply that pure breed ethnic groups like Australian Aborigines would be extinct, with their only genetic evidence in some low to moderate admixed individuals. Even now you have numerous Aborigine claimants that are substantially if not majority Caucasian.

Behavioral characteristics including intelligence are genetic, inheritable, and under selective pressure. Darwin's theory of evolution simply prohibits racial equality and is inherently racist. It is only through religion that all men are created equally. :hehe:
A rational skeptic should be able to discuss and debate anything, no matter how much they may personally disagree with that point of view. Discussing a subject is not agreeing with it, but understanding it.

User avatar
Gawdzilla Sama
Stabsobermaschinist
Posts: 151265
Joined: Thu Feb 26, 2009 12:24 am
About me: My posts are related to the thread in the same way Gliese 651b is related to your mother's underwear drawer.
Location: Sitting next to Ayaan in Domus Draconis, and communicating via PMs.
Contact:

Re: The Mis-portrayal of Darwin as a Racist.

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:00 pm

The difference is genocide is a conscious process. If we stumble-fuck around and kill off a species, that is not genocide, it's just us being assholes.
Image
Ein Ubootsoldat wrote:“Ich melde mich ab. Grüssen Sie bitte meine Kameraden.”

User avatar
Tyrannical
Posts: 6326
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2010 4:59 am
Contact:

Re: The Mis-portrayal of Darwin as a Racist.

Post by Tyrannical » Fri Apr 13, 2012 1:13 pm

Gawdzilla wrote:The difference is genocide is a conscious process. If we stumble-fuck around and kill off a species, that is not genocide, it's just us being assholes.
There is generally only one apex predator in a given niche, why is that :thinks:
:fp: They kill the competition, though the text books give it the more friendly name "out compete". When the English arrived in Australia, they out competed the Aborigines just like they did the American Indians. Was it wrong? Every other living organism would destroy or deny resources to a competitor as it is instinctive and a key driver of natural selection.
A rational skeptic should be able to discuss and debate anything, no matter how much they may personally disagree with that point of view. Discussing a subject is not agreeing with it, but understanding it.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests