this is hugely embarrassing for regular atheists

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Re: this is hugely embarrassing for regular atheists

Post by DMac » Fri Feb 26, 2010 10:14 am

Fred Kite wrote:The incessant whining and vicious comments being made about Richard Dawkins and his web team are completely unnecessary, has nothing to do with atheism and everything to do with the relationship between Richard Dawkins, his webteam and Richard Dawkins fans.

Most atheists I know are civilised, rational-thinking, liberal-minded and decent human beings who don't see the vicious vendetta and personal attacks on Richard Dawkins and his webteam as rational-thinking, civilised, liberal minded or decent.
Err, the comments have a lot to do with critical thinking, rationality, evidence-based reasoning, which Dawkins and his team have shown very little of in this fracas. Dawkins is still a fine atheist I suppose, not so fine a rationalist, at least for these events. It's the startling hypocrisy and irony that drew me to this drama.

And again, give some examples of vicious comments. Where did you first see such vicious comments? How common are these vicious comments? Did you follow the source of these vicious comments so you could appreciate them in context? You like rational thought--how about engaging in it?

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Re: this is hugely embarrassing for regular atheists

Post by Robert_S » Fri Feb 26, 2010 10:18 am

I'm a regular atheist and I am deeply dismayed by the misrepresentation that appeared under Richard Dawkins' name on the RDF forum.

It is either an act of ignorance or great hypocrisy. To call attention to the angry ventings of a few while brushing aside the considered criticisms of the many does not make the label "atheist" a more attractive one.
What I've found with a few discussions I've had lately is this self-satisfaction that people express with their proffessed open mindedness. In realty it ammounts to wilful ignorance and intellectual cowardice as they are choosing to not form any sort of opinion on a particular topic. Basically "I don't know and I'm not going to look at any evidence because I'm quite happy on this fence."
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Re: this is hugely embarrassing for regular atheists

Post by virphen » Fri Feb 26, 2010 10:20 am

Fred Kite wrote: Most atheists I know are civilised, rational-thinking, liberal-minded and decent human beings who don't see the vicious vendetta and personal attacks on Richard Dawkins and his webteam as rational-thinking, civilised, liberal minded or decent.
If they are indeed civilised, rational-thinking, liberal-minded and decent human beings then they will take the time to understand properly what happened, and no doubt rue the misrepresentation of what took place by Richard Dawkins and his webteam, and have great sympathy for the rational-thinking, civilised, liberal minded and very very decent group of people they treated so shabbily.

Again: until you can be bothered informing yourself (as a rational person would do) of exactly what took place, shut the fuck up. You're making yourself look woefully ignorant and pathetically irrational.

Fred Kite

Re: this is hugely embarrassing for regular atheists

Post by Fred Kite » Fri Feb 26, 2010 10:24 am

95Theses wrote:it is clear you have no idea what happened or why we are angry about it, and I struggle to believe you are even actually reading all the comments being made about this.

You are correct. I have no idea why you are angry and what you are angry about. Judging by the comments on this and other fora, it's clear that many of you don't understand what you are angry about and why.

The forum was being kept open for another 30 days to allow members to archive it - so, you can't be angry about the forum disappearing. It was also announced that there would be a new discussion area. So, you can't be angry about the inability to discuss on Richard Dawkins site. The web team appear to have made an executive decision about the future of the new discussion area, which is their prerogative as they are responsible for the site. So, you can't be angry about that.

Which leaves very little to be really and genuinely angry about. Certainly not anything to warrant the vicious and personal attacks on Richard Dawkins and his web team.

What would you say to my psychology pal who remarked that it (the rabid attacks on Richard Dawkin and his collegues) bears the hallmarks of aspergers rather than an "atheist community"?

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Re: this is hugely embarrassing for regular atheists

Post by RoaringAtheist » Fri Feb 26, 2010 10:26 am

Could you please

1. Summarize what you think people are angry about? Hint : It's not the forum closing.
2. Show us where these terrible comments are? I've seen a half dozen, most of them clearly marked as venting, and hundreds of posts that lack such vitriol.

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Re: this is hugely embarrassing for regular atheists

Post by virphen » Fri Feb 26, 2010 10:28 am

Fred Kite wrote: What would you say to my psychology pal who remarked that it (the rabid attacks on Richard Dawkin and his collegues) bears the hallmarks of aspergers rather than an "atheist community"?
I would say he should be embarrassed for commenting so authoritatively on a topic he has not bothered to educate himself on.

Just like you should be. Learn what actually happened. Currently you're just making yourself look as silly as the average fundy.

Fred Kite

Re: this is hugely embarrassing for regular atheists

Post by Fred Kite » Fri Feb 26, 2010 10:30 am

RoaringAtheist wrote:Could you please

1. Summarize what you think people are angry about? Hint : It's not the forum closing.
It doesn't matter what people think they are angry about. It's the rabid and vicious personal attacks on richard dawkins and his collegues that is the problem and the presentation of a Richard Dawkins Fan Site as the "largest online atheist community".

I visited the site on many occasions. It was not an "atheist community "- there was jews, humanists, theists, secularists and all walks of life on there. It was a Richard Dawkins Fan Site where some members were atheists.

Fred Kite

Re: this is hugely embarrassing for regular atheists

Post by Fred Kite » Fri Feb 26, 2010 10:34 am

virphen wrote:
Fred Kite wrote: What would you say to my psychology pal who remarked that it (the rabid attacks on Richard Dawkin and his collegues) bears the hallmarks of aspergers rather than an "atheist community"?
I would say he should be embarrassed for commenting so authoritatively on a topic he has not bothered to educate himself on.

Just like you should be. Learn what actually happened. Currently you're just making yourself look as silly as the average fundy.
how dare you. you don't know my friend. you have no idea what he has or has not studied. He made a remark about aspergers and explained the common symptoms to me as a possible explanation to why there has been such an irrational and vicious personal attack on richard dawkins and his collegues.

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Re: this is hugely embarrassing for regular atheists

Post by virphen » Fri Feb 26, 2010 10:37 am

Fred Kite wrote: how dare you. you don't know my friend. you have no idea what he has or has not studied. He made a remark about aspergers and explained the common symptoms to me as a possible explanation to why there has been such an irrational and vicious personal attack on richard dawkins and his collegues.
I dare quite easily, I'd say it to his face. I don't need to know what he has studied to know that diagnosing a group of hundreds of people with a condition based on an anecdote he hasn't bothered to research properly is grossly unprofessional.

What is irrational about this is the failure of people such as yourself to bother to educate themselves as to exactly what took place. To bother understanding what was said and by whom and why.

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Re: this is hugely embarrassing for regular atheists

Post by DMac » Fri Feb 26, 2010 10:39 am

Fred Kite wrote:What would you say to my psychology pal who remarked that it (the rabid attacks on Richard Dawkin and his collegues) bears the hallmarks of aspergers rather than an "atheist community"?
I'd say he's as completely clueless about the real events as you are. And that the two of you have probably cornered the market on straw in your community.

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Re: this is hugely embarrassing for regular atheists

Post by Animavore » Fri Feb 26, 2010 10:39 am

Fred Kite wrote:
virphen wrote:
Fred Kite wrote: What would you say to my psychology pal who remarked that it (the rabid attacks on Richard Dawkin and his collegues) bears the hallmarks of aspergers rather than an "atheist community"?
I would say he should be embarrassed for commenting so authoritatively on a topic he has not bothered to educate himself on.

Just like you should be. Learn what actually happened. Currently you're just making yourself look as silly as the average fundy.
how dare you. you don't know my friend. you have no idea what he has or has not studied. He made a remark about aspergers and explained the common symptoms to me as a possible explanation to why there has been such an irrational and vicious personal attack on richard dawkins and his collegues.
And yet funnily here's a quote from a person on the site who actually has Aspergers.
InYourFaceNewYorker wrote:Have you guys seen the announcement Richard made? It is now clear why such drastic actions were taken. I just want to personally thank the people who ruined it for the rest of us by sending Richard (and I'm guessing Josh, too) some nasty emails reminiscent of the ones Richard read aloud in The Genius of Charles Darwin. You know who you are. And after seeing some of the nasty names you called Josh here, it is now clear that many of you are not capable of talking about this in a reasonable manner.

Look, I don't agree with the changes being made. But the drastic actions being taken are a result of immature vitriol, it seems. I imagine that, had this not happened, we could have had some normal discussion on the forum on our thoughts about the changes being made. Instead, a select few ruined it for us.

Thank you, whoever you are, for making it come to this.

Julie
http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... 85#p356067

Sounds almost exactly like what you wrote :ask:

EDIT: That's not a dig at you Julie. I'm just showing the guy above that, far from his portrayal of people with Aspergers being rabid lunatics they are actually quite thoughtful people :mrgreen:
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Re: this is hugely embarrassing for regular atheists

Post by 95Theses » Fri Feb 26, 2010 10:40 am

Fred Kite wrote: You are correct. I have no idea why you are angry and what you are angry about. Judging by the comments on this and other fora, it's clear that many of you don't understand what you are angry about and why.

The forum was being kept open for another 30 days to allow members to archive it - so, you can't be angry about the forum disappearing. It was also announced that there would be a new discussion area. So, you can't be angry about the inability to discuss on Richard Dawkins site. The web team appear to have made an executive decision about the future of the new discussion area, which is their prerogative as they are responsible for the site. So, you can't be angry about that.

Which leaves very little to be really and genuinely angry about. Certainly not anything to warrant the vicious and personal attacks on Richard Dawkins and his web team.

What would you say to my psychology pal who remarked that it (the rabid attacks on Richard Dawkin and his collegues) bears the hallmarks of aspergers rather than an "atheist community"?
Ok, how about you read these first then?

http://realityismyreligion.wordpress.co ... open-soon/

http://realityismyreligion.wordpress.co ... m-closure/
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Re: this is hugely embarrassing for regular atheists

Post by Millefleur » Fri Feb 26, 2010 10:43 am

Fred Kite wrote:
RoaringAtheist wrote:Could you please

1. Summarize what you think people are angry about? Hint : It's not the forum closing.
It doesn't matter what people think they are angry about. It's the rabid and vicious personal attacks on richard dawkins and his collegues that is the problem and the presentation of a Richard Dawkins Fan Site as the "largest online atheist community".

I visited the site on many occasions. It was not an "atheist community "- there was jews, humanists, theists, secularists and all walks of life on there. It was a Richard Dawkins Fan Site where some members were atheists.

I'd consider myself a regular atheist. I'm upset that the forum closed abruptly, that the admins decided to delete the accounts (and contributions) of those who dared to criticise, I'm angry that the admin treated the moderators in a disgusting manner, that the admin disabled/restricted the private messaging system (an attempt to cut people off from the friends they had made), I'm insulted by Dawkins statement, I'm disappointed the media have pickedup the story without researching it.

I've have never personally attacked or insulted Dawkins but I find his behaviour massively disappointing and I'm struggling to find any respect for him as a person. I still respect his work.

I don't consider myself a 'fan'. I came to the Dawkins site because of Dawkins work, I found the forum and I stayed not because of Dawkins but because of the members and the community who have educated me far more then Dawkins ever could on every aspect from evolution through every religion to general knowledge. It is these people I appreciate and respect, dawkins simply provided the platform and now he's torn it down I'm not surprised people are upset and that some have vented that by insulting Dawkins.
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Re: this is hugely embarrassing for regular atheists

Post by JimC » Fri Feb 26, 2010 10:48 am

A key point here ignored by the OP is that the majority of the anger expressed here is about the site admin of RDF, not RD himself. Many carefully thought out posts have agreed that, even if RD was lax and too trusting of his employees, we still value and respect him for his science writing and communication about atheism, although other views about RD certainly exist.

Anyway, we all have a right to express an opinion (including the opinion expressed in the OP), and Rationalia is happy to let a community express what it needs to express...
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Re: this is hugely embarrassing for regular atheists

Post by logical bob » Fri Feb 26, 2010 10:53 am

Fred Kite wrote:The forum was being kept open for another 30 days to allow members to archive it - so, you can't be angry about the forum disappearing.
Does anyone believe they really intended to stay open for 30 days?
It was also announced that there would be a new discussion area. So, you can't be angry about the inability to discuss on Richard Dawkins site.
A discussion area in which topics need prior staff approval. I post on a fundie Christian site with less censorship than that.
The web team appear to have made an executive decision about the future of the new discussion area, which is their prerogative as they are responsible for the site. So, you can't be angry about that.
That's like saying you couldn't be angry if your landlord used his perogative to evict you from his house.
What would you say to my psychology pal who remarked that it (the rabid attacks on Richard Dawkin and his collegues) bears the hallmarks of aspergers rather than an "atheist community"?
I'd say it sounds as if he/she doesn't know much about Aspergers.
It was a Richard Dawkins Fan Site where some members were atheists.
It was a site where some were fans of Dawkins and some weren't. There were many threads where Dawkins' ideas were challenged by atheists.
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