this is hugely embarrassing for regular atheists

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Re: this is hugely embarrassing for regular atheists

Post by Randydeluxe » Fri Feb 26, 2010 4:39 pm

Fred Kite wrote:Ockhams razor: If the mods did their jobs well. There wouldn't be a problem. They didn't and there is.
This is possibly the least-informed attempted use of Occam's Razor that I've ever seen.

You might want to read up on it before misusing it again. This is a good explanation of Occam's Razor. Click on the link to "parsimony" when you're done.

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Re: this is hugely embarrassing for regular atheists

Post by goodboyCerberus » Fri Feb 26, 2010 4:43 pm

Thinking Aloud wrote:No-one responded to my news about the moon's orbit. :cry:
I wrote:(BTW: The Earth and Moon both orbit a center of mass roughly 3/4ths of the way from the center of the Earth to the surface. The more you know!)
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Re: this is hugely embarrassing for regular atheists

Post by ED209 » Fri Feb 26, 2010 4:44 pm

Fred Kite wrote:
ED209 wrote: Jesus Christ Fred, do you really not understand that the bile was posted here - on a forum completely unconnected to Richard Dawkins - and even then only after the RDF mods had been sacked, thousands of posts deleted, and the RDF forum closed? How do you imagine that is controlled by the mods of RDF?

If you want to know why people aren't really liking you much, you might reflect that you continue to belittle the thousands of hours of tireless and unpaid work the mods for Dawkins' contributed to that site only to be completely erased by Dawkins' IT monkey. Why not go ask your 'psychology pal' about that aspect to your behaviour, he might be able to diagnose you off-the-cuff as well.
why are you twisting what I'm saying?

Richard dawkins said, before the kerfuffle that he wanted to eradicate the sort of bile that was appearing on the forum...the sort of bile that moderators were supposed to clean up and moderate.

Okums razor stuff, ED209. if the moderators had of kept the forum civil, richard would have been delighted with it.

I didn't come in here to be liked. I came in here to voice my opinion. if you don't agree with that. Fine. That's all well and good. but to disagree and then throw insults at me is precisely the sort of bile that richard dawkins didn't like.
I'm not twisting what you're saying. Also, you will find that I have nowhere insulted you. I'm just reminding you and everyone else that you made a fallacious appeal to authority by saying your 'psychology pal' was able to diagnose indications of Asperger's in an unspecified number of people who he has never met by reading two or three selected third-hand quotes that were attributed to them, then in a second fallacy implied that the opinions of people who are established (by fallacy #1) to have Asperger's are to be disregarded, and are still trying maintain those fallacies.

I spell it Occam, BTW. Occam's Razor does not mean that you can just imagine something in your head, and it becomes magically true (despite contradicting all the available evidence) upon reciting the phrase 'Occam's razor'.

That there was no bile on the RDF forum anywhere is a fact which invalidates your guess, the bile he quoted was all made after the event and unless we introduce a razor-defying time machine into your theory it just doesn't work. It's not even the simplest guess; simpler answers would be that Dawkins no longer wanted to pay the bandwidth, that his incompetent IT staff (who were demonstrably unable to keep the forum from falling over on a regular basis) advised him to move to the front page format out of professional laziness, or that Dawkins simply changed his mind and didn't want a forum any more on his domain. His quotes about admiring the off-topic banter and community spirit date back a couple of years ago now, perhaps you can illuminate us as to whether this was before the invention of bile or swearing on the internet? Note that none of those hypotheses involve any failing in moderation, or undesirable behaviour by the members of that site. They don't even require that Dawkins even saw the forum.

And finally the insistence that Occam's Razor hold true in all cases, i.e. the simplest conceivable explanation is always true, is itself a fallacy :console:

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Re: this is hugely embarrassing for regular atheists

Post by Fred Kite » Fri Feb 26, 2010 4:46 pm

wtargentina wrote:Looks like Fred "I'm outta here" Kite is settling in for the long haul!

If you are still unsure as to why some people are angry at the decision by RDF check out Cali's contribution here - http://rationalia.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... hilit=cali

I guess that might give you an idea of the feelings of just one of the many outstanding contributors to the forum.

I've read that letter. It's been posted on a lot of fora now.

I found the letter very disturbing, to be honest.

And supports my pals theory:

...it's fascinating, more from an anthropological point of view than a psychological point of view because you're dealing with a group of people here but there is clearly some symptoms of aspergers being displayed in the comments on the guardian and the times. Richard and his team needs to tread very carefully now. The reaction is so exceptionally personal and vicious it suggests that it doesn't matter now who was right and who was wrong....it appears to me that the source of the anger is because many of these people became addicted/obsessed with the forum and spent a huge amount of time there. That's not Dawkins' fault but there are parallels with how some people get obsessed with religion.....in my opinion he is doing the right thing to shut it down and change it to be fully moderated....

the cal guy is a bit like peter harrison. he has become obsessed with something that is over. there's not much substance to their argument - it's richard dawkins site and it's richard dawkins call what happens there, not cals. regardless of the amount of hours he spent on there. he's even dictating to richard in the last few paragraphs what richard should do with richards website. scary.

Both he and peter harrison (and others) know the way the forum members operated. they ganged up on people on the forum and throw insults at contrarians with an independent mind or point of view. I should add that this is only a small minority of people on the forums.

they also know that there's an anger out there and they know they can fuel that anger by posting more and keeping the kerfuffle going. I was shocked to see people on here (rationalia.com) discussing how to push press releases out to news papers to get more coverage.

ultimately. it all goes back to my original point....it doesn't matter who is right or wrong at this stage. What's going on is distinctly religious in it's fervour. Particularly with the way the angry mob are repeating allegations on top of allegations to validate their point of view.

I'm not interested in who is to blame. It's over.

incidentally there's nothing in cals letter that justifies the vicious and personal attacks on richard dawkins and josh.

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Re: this is hugely embarrassing for regular atheists

Post by DaveD » Fri Feb 26, 2010 4:48 pm

Fred Kite wrote:
I'm not interested in who is to blame. It's over.
And yet you are quick to blame the moderating team.
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Re: this is hugely embarrassing for regular atheists

Post by Fred Kite » Fri Feb 26, 2010 4:49 pm

Charlou wrote:I don't know about the rest of you, but I think we've wasting more time with Fred Kite than his opinions deserve. Who's for staging a walk out of this thread and allowing him to get on with leaving us in peace? Image
what's with the snide remarks?

one minute you welcome someone to the forum and give tips about the rules, the next you post a snide remark?

what is it with you people?

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Re: this is hugely embarrassing for regular atheists

Post by Coito ergo sum » Fri Feb 26, 2010 4:49 pm

Animavore wrote:The members of RDF aren't regular atheists?
They aren't necessarily atheists.

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Re: this is hugely embarrassing for regular atheists

Post by Feck » Fri Feb 26, 2010 4:50 pm

So not happy with slagging off my forum (and ignoring my posts) now we have got down to blaming the mods and admins on RDF :nono:

Seems like some of friends get splashed with the shit in this thread twice . Nothing posted so far in this thread has made me anything other than glad there was so much vitriol thrown . I was thinking that some peace and calm and time to lick wounds would be a nice idea but while we still seemingly have to repeat over and over again the FACTS (oh look I can do big writing too Have you tried colours?) then we will have no peace .
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Re: this is hugely embarrassing for regular atheists

Post by Kristie » Fri Feb 26, 2010 4:51 pm

Fred Kite wrote:
Charlou wrote:I don't know about the rest of you, but I think we've wasting more time with Fred Kite than his opinions deserve. Who's for staging a walk out of this thread and allowing him to get on with leaving us in peace? Image
what's with the snide remarks?

one minute you welcome someone to the forum and give tips about the rules, the next you post a snide remark?

what is it with you people?
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Re: this is hugely embarrassing for regular atheists

Post by wtargentina » Fri Feb 26, 2010 4:52 pm

You don't think people should fight to keep something they worked really hard at?

You think they are metally ill?

Its not over because you say it is - what gives you that power?

What exactly is shocking about a press release?


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Re: this is hugely embarrassing for regular atheists

Post by goodboyCerberus » Fri Feb 26, 2010 4:53 pm

Feck wrote:So not happy with slagging off my forum (and ignoring my posts) now we have got down to blaming the mods and admins on RDF :nono:

Seems like some of friends get splashed with the shit in this thread twice . Nothing posted so far in this thread has made me anything other than glad there was so much vitriol thrown . I was thinking that some peace and calm and time to lick wounds would be a nice idea but while we still seemingly have to repeat over and over again the FACTS (oh look I can do big writing too Have you tried colours?) then we will have no peace .
I wrote:...

Bottom line: People shouldn't be making shit up about Josh and Richard's love child. I don't care if its just one person, the actions of a vocal few can be used by Josh or the fundies or whomever to paint us all negatively. That's all I'm afraid of. Can you understand that?

This is what it looks like: http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2009/ ... st_how.php

Its apples and oranges. Generation Rescue apparently condoned that garbage. But it doesn't matter to our critics. Its ammunition, can you understand that?

I'm not telling people to be emotionless robots. I, too, am still saddened by all this.

Vent all you want. We're entitled to complain - and complain loudly as long as the "official" story being propagated is all lies. I feel stupid reminding you all that once you put anything out on the Internet (e.g. personal information on social networking sites, or libelous rantings), you lose control.

We don't need to act like jackasses. That's not how one fights jackassery.

My 2¢.

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I think this got buried. Sorry for tooting my own horn.
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Re: this is hugely embarrassing for regular atheists

Post by Fred Kite » Fri Feb 26, 2010 4:54 pm

DaveD wrote:
Fred Kite wrote:
I'm not interested in who is to blame. It's over.
And yet you are quick to blame the moderating team.
I know. I was trying not to get sucked into the "it's all their fault" discussion. It's hard when people gang up on you and sling snide remarks and insults instead of discussing the key points.

ultimately, the blame game is irrelevant. It doesn't really matter now who is to blame. It's over and the sort of people causing problems richard mentioned he was having on the forum have excelled in becoming a caricature of themselves in the last few days.

And providing ample ammunition to those who want to make the word atheism a slur or dirty word.

nothing i have read on here, or linked from here, justifies the sort of vicious and personal attacks directed at richard and josh.

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Re: this is hugely embarrassing for regular atheists

Post by Xamonas Chegwé » Fri Feb 26, 2010 4:57 pm

Fred Kite wrote:
DaveD wrote:
Fred Kite wrote:
I'm not interested in who is to blame. It's over.
And yet you are quick to blame the moderating team.
I know. I was trying not to get sucked into the "it's all their fault" discussion. It's hard when people gang up on you and sling snide remarks and insults instead of discussing the key points.

ultimately, the blame game is irrelevant. It doesn't really matter now who is to blame. It's over and the sort of people causing problems richard mentioned he was having on the forum have excelled in becoming a caricature of themselves in the last few days.

And providing ample ammunition to those who want to make the word atheism a slur or dirty word.

nothing i have read on here, or linked from here, justifies the sort of vicious and personal attacks directed at richard and josh.
Yes. We heard that the first time. And the 51st. And we are sick of hearing nothing else from you.

Please change the record and make an effort to fit in with the rest of the members here or we will have no possible option than to assume that your sole purpose here is to troll that one point repeatedly and you will be suspended.
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Re: this is hugely embarrassing for regular atheists

Post by macdoc » Fri Feb 26, 2010 5:00 pm

Fred Kite whined
what's with the snide remarks?

one minute you welcome someone to the forum and give tips about the rules, the next you post a snide remark?

what is it with you people?
Because at this point it's easy to recognize trollish behavior and YOU realllllly don't get it at all....

YOU don't represent me, YOU don't represent fuck all except your own limited mindset. YOU were not there and I suggest YOU try contributing thousands of hours here in valuable posts instead of the nonsense you started with and THEN take a look three years down the road at how YOU might feel.

Josh's activities verged on criminal in vindicitively erasing 10's of thousands of posts by volunteers who had hundreds and thousands of hours of work invested.

The handling of a transition was unacceptable especially the treatment of mods.

10k poster on Dawkins with thousands of hours invested in science and education on the site......
Last edited by macdoc on Fri Feb 26, 2010 7:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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