Abortion USA

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Re: Abortion USA

Post by L'Emmerdeur » Thu Sep 29, 2022 5:51 am

Svartalf wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 9:12 pm
thanks pal :tup:
Pas de quoi mon ami. :td:

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Re: Abortion USA

Post by Brian Peacock » Thu Sep 29, 2022 8:31 am

aufbahrung wrote:Abortion should be banned except in very specific circumstances. The rights of the unborn are paramount. I knowI'm on the wrong side of history right now, but in the fullness of time the temporary consensus today will be seen for the aberration it is - a result of overpopulation rather than rational thinking. When population bottoms out at around 500million globally the sense in protecting the rights of the unborn will become fairly apparent. Whose gonna plough the fields with a ever decreasing population after all?
Abortion services are rooted within sets of social conditions, and economic and political contexts. Most reasonable people take abortion and related issues seriously and are aware of the moral and ethical conflicts. Declarative moral strictures issued on the behalf of others are cheap, and too easy to make - particularly when they have no consequence for the person issuing them. Addressing the actual situations people find themselves in is a lot more demanding.
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Abortion USA

Post by Hermit » Thu Sep 29, 2022 8:43 am

Brian Peacock wrote:
Thu Sep 29, 2022 8:31 am
aufbahrung wrote:Abortion should be banned except in very specific circumstances. The rights of the unborn are paramount. I knowI'm on the wrong side of history right now, but in the fullness of time the temporary consensus today will be seen for the aberration it is - a result of overpopulation rather than rational thinking. When population bottoms out at around 500million globally the sense in protecting the rights of the unborn will become fairly apparent. Whose gonna plough the fields with a ever decreasing population after all?
Abortion services are rooted within sets of social conditions, and economic and political contexts. Most reasonable people take abortion and related issues seriously and are aware of the moral and ethical conflicts. Declarative moral strictures issued on the behalf of others are cheap, and too easy to make - particularly when they have no consequence for the person issuing them. Addressing the actual situations people find themselves in is a lot more demanding.
The moral and ethical conflicts, at least in the first two trimesters, are rooted in religion. If you take the religious dicta out you finish up with something like this:

Image
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Re: Abortion USA

Post by Brian Peacock » Thu Sep 29, 2022 8:59 am

Not sure that those conflicts don't exist outside of or beyond religion, but basically yeah.
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Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Abortion USA

Post by Hermit » Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:31 am

Brian Peacock wrote:
Thu Sep 29, 2022 8:59 am
Not sure that those conflicts don't exist outside of or beyond religion, but basically yeah.
Cultural Christians, Muslims et cetera. That's why I wrote moral and ethical conflicts are rooted in religion rather than relevant only to believers in religion.
I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops. - Stephen J. Gould

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Re: Abortion USA

Post by Brian Peacock » Thu Sep 29, 2022 11:34 am

Hermit wrote:
Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:31 am
Brian Peacock wrote:
Thu Sep 29, 2022 8:59 am
Not sure that those conflicts don't exist outside of or beyond religion, but basically yeah.
Cultural Christians, Muslims et cetera. That's why I wrote moral and ethical conflicts are rooted in religion rather than relevant only to believers in religion.
I take your point, but I still think there are some moral and ethical conflicts to address that are intrinsic to discussions on abortion that are not necessarily rooted in religious doctrine or religious cultural perspectives - at the very least there are some legitimate questions to address around the primacy of the rights of different actors and how they rub up against concepts like personhood, autonomy, the role of the state in determining the extent or bounds of rights, who gets them, who doesn't, or when and where the state can act for/against the protection of rights-holders, etc etc.
Rationalia relies on voluntary donations. There is no obligation of course, but if you value this place and want to see it continue please consider making a small donation towards the forum's running costs.
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There are two other possibilities: one is paperwork, and the other is nostalgia."

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"This is how humanity ends; bickering over the irrelevant."
Clinton Huxley » 21 Jun 2012 » 14:10:36 GMT
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Re: Abortion USA

Post by aufbahrung » Thu Sep 29, 2022 2:00 pm

Someone asleep lacks awareness until morning. Is it OK to treat them as a late abortion because they are at a stage in their timeline of life when they ain't proper human? Not bothered, not my interest really, figure these arguments will resolve themselves though as humans die out and a lower population regains the general 'respect for life' before the vessel its carried in thing...you'll get the idea if you live through the cataclysm to see it...I reckon. :crumple:
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Re: Abortion USA

Post by Hermit » Fri Sep 30, 2022 12:29 am

aufbahrung wrote:
Thu Sep 29, 2022 2:00 pm
Someone asleep lacks awareness until morning. Is it OK to treat them as a late abortion because they are at a stage in their timeline of life when they ain't proper human?
That's a bizarre question. A sleeping human is a "proper human". A zygote, embryo or foetus may become a "proper human", but not before at least 20 weeks of gestation have passed.

When humans sleep they do not revert to being a zygote, embryo or foetus. If you kill them, you have killed human beings that have spent a third of their lives asleep.
I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops. - Stephen J. Gould

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Re: Abortion USA

Post by aufbahrung » Fri Sep 30, 2022 4:20 am

From the moment of conception the die is more or less cast regarding the lifeline, except for in cases of spontaneous natural abortion, so killing someone just because they are at the 'computer boot' stage of life is little different from when they are asleep. A stab in the back is a stab in the back whether poor man or Queen. Saying they died of old age? or no age to speak of? that's no moral excuse.
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Re: Abortion USA

Post by Hermit » Fri Sep 30, 2022 6:09 am

aufbahrung wrote:
Fri Sep 30, 2022 4:20 am
From the moment of conception the die is more or less cast regarding the lifeline, except for in cases of spontaneous natural abortion, so killing someone just because they are at the 'computer boot' stage of life is little different from when they are asleep.
When you perform an abortion you are not terminating someone. You abort a zygote, embryo or foetus. Objecting to abortions on the grounds that they will become human beings later on if no abortion is performed is nonsense.

Since you chose to mention being asleep again, let me reiterate: When you sleep you remain a human being. You do not regress to the non-human form of a zygote, embryo or foetus. It is OK to abort the latter. It is not OK to kill a sleeping human being.
I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops. - Stephen J. Gould

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Re: Abortion USA

Post by Hermit » Fri Sep 30, 2022 6:27 am

Brian Peacock wrote:
Thu Sep 29, 2022 11:34 am
Hermit wrote:
Thu Sep 29, 2022 10:31 am
Brian Peacock wrote:
Thu Sep 29, 2022 8:59 am
Not sure that those conflicts don't exist outside of or beyond religion, but basically yeah.
Cultural Christians, Muslims et cetera. That's why I wrote moral and ethical conflicts are rooted in religion rather than relevant only to believers in religion.
I take your point, but I still think there are some moral and ethical conflicts to address that are intrinsic to discussions on abortion that are not necessarily rooted in religious doctrine or religious cultural perspectives - at the very least there are some legitimate questions to address around the primacy of the rights of different actors and how they rub up against concepts like personhood, autonomy, the role of the state in determining the extent or bounds of rights, who gets them, who doesn't, or when and where the state can act for/against the protection of rights-holders, etc etc.
Sorry. I somehow missed your post earlier.

Can you give me concrete examples of purely secular moral objections as they apply to the relationship between abortions on one side and the extent or bounds of rights, who gets them, who doesn't, or when and where the state can act for/against the protection of rights-holders, etc on the other? I mean, I know about eugenics, overreach by governments or family, etc etc. What I don't know is whether there are genuine, purely secular moral objections to the act of performing an abortion itself.
I am, somehow, less interested in the weight and convolutions of Einstein’s brain than in the near certainty that people of equal talent have lived and died in cotton fields and sweatshops. - Stephen J. Gould

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Re: Abortion USA

Post by aufbahrung » Fri Sep 30, 2022 7:11 am

There's the aesthetic argument. The less abortion, the greater the population. The closer we come to the Bladerunner aesthetic. That's where I'm coming from partially. Don't get me wrong I've nothing against nature. Sooner we have a artificial sustained biosphere here the sooner we will on Mars. For me though. Aesthetics is a integral part of my decision making.
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Re: Abortion USA

Post by pErvinalia » Fri Sep 30, 2022 7:25 am

What in the fuck are you talking about? I'm surprised Hermit made some sort of sense of the sleeping person thing. Made no sense to me.
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Re: Abortion USA

Post by aufbahrung » Fri Sep 30, 2022 7:39 am

pErvinalia wrote:
Fri Sep 30, 2022 7:25 am
What in the fuck are you talking about? I'm surprised Hermit made some sort of sense of the sleeping person thing. Made no sense to me.
Let's just say I'm a biopath. And want to cross humans with other animals later. And kickstart a new biological revolution on the planet. So it's important to have has many around as possible so a few survive the coming die-off.
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Re: Abortion USA

Post by pErvinalia » Fri Sep 30, 2022 9:30 am

What?
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"I am seriously thinking of going on a spree killing" - Svartalf.

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