Another Skepchick War! Dr. Marty Klein crossed the line!

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Re: Another Skepchick War! Dr. Marty Klein crossed the line

Post by Coito ergo sum » Tue Jun 19, 2012 9:43 pm

hadespussercats wrote:
Svartalf wrote:
hadespussercats wrote:
Svartalf wrote:Except of course that hitting on somebody who is 'at work' does not constitute harassment per se, or thousands of barmaids and other personnel in contact with the customers would be raking in millions in suits against customers who hit on them.
Or they don't pursue possible legitimate legal claims.

My understanding is that "hitting on" someone at work IS in fact harassment.

Not everyone is so bothered by that that they turn to legal intervention.
Dunno, French legal definition of it implies the ability to make trouble at work for the harassee, if not the threat (implied or overt) to do so.

Maybe US definition is different.
I'm not sure.

But barmaids and the like have a real incentive to let this sort of thing pass-- the guys (creepy or otherwise) who hit on them will probably tip well if she's friendly.

You'd hope, anyway...
Cases involving customers harassing employees are much more difficult to win than employees harassing other employees. That's because the employer doesn't control the customers.

So, let's say barmaid gets hit on by customer at the bar. Half drunk dude says "You're really hot. Go out with me! Please! I love you! I want you!" And, she says no. He stops and just watches t.v. from then on. Sexual harassment? No fucking way, even if he handed her a swinger's card, and made a rude gesture indicating cunnilingus was in the offing. That would not be "sexual harassment." That's a rude customer.

Now, fast forward. The barmaid reports the incident to the bar management. Management tells her it's no big deal. The half drunk dude starts coming back to the bar and does it again and again. She keeps reporting the incident to the bar, and they do nothing. She's being daily confronted by this guy, it's starting to make her upset daily, and she's having a hard time dealing with it. She's been reporting it to the employer, but they won't do anything. She quits, claiming she can't work their anymore.

She may have a lawsuit against the bar, because they received notice of the problem and did nothing. The issue would be "would a reasonable person think the harassment was so severe and pervasive as to rise to the level of a hostile or offensive work environment" and that a reasonable person would feel that they had no choice but to quit.

She'd report the matter to the EEOC. They would investigate and do nothing. She could then sue the bar.

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Re: Another Skepchick War! Dr. Marty Klein crossed the line

Post by Coito ergo sum » Tue Jun 19, 2012 9:47 pm

hadespussercats wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:
Robert_S wrote:
Seth wrote:Sounds like her position should be bent over a table naked with her hands handcuffed behind her for the next meeting. Maybe that would loosen her tight ass up a little.
Yeah, that's kinda creepy... More than kinda actually. I'm going to assume you were illustrating a point unless you say differently.

I usually think very little of her and other women's complaints until I read the bizarre amount of hostile sexism in the reactions. I mean, what is it about women bringing up sexism that turns an astonishing number of my fellow males into stark raving /b/tards?

I think the reason I am slow to see some things is that I ask myself "how would I come to make such a gaffe?". Now it occurs to me that maybe there's a lot more sexually fucked up men than me out there than I might think...
On the Skepchick thread? There were "hostile sexist reactions?" I didn't read any. I did see where any expression of dissent to the assertion that handing the card was a serious incident was squelched and silenced.
Did you actually read what you quoted?
I did. Can you direct me to the "hostile sexist" reactions? The Skepchicks don't even brook dissent, much less "hostile sexist."

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Re: Another Skepchick War! Dr. Marty Klein crossed the line

Post by Robert_S » Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:01 pm

CES: Seth suggested she ought to be bound naked and bent over a table and that her asshole should be in a different state than it was before.

:wtf:
What I've found with a few discussions I've had lately is this self-satisfaction that people express with their proffessed open mindedness. In realty it ammounts to wilful ignorance and intellectual cowardice as they are choosing to not form any sort of opinion on a particular topic. Basically "I don't know and I'm not going to look at any evidence because I'm quite happy on this fence."
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Re: Another Skepchick War! Dr. Marty Klein crossed the line

Post by Seth » Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:12 pm

hadespussercats wrote:
Seth wrote:If you don't want to be viewed as a sex object, then wear a big black bag so nobody can tell if you're male, female or even human.

Whole countries and cultures utilize that simple "sexual harassment" avoidance expedient.

Otherwise, just say "Why thank you for your interest, but no thanks" or shut the fuck up.
Some people keep their dildos in a big black bag. Does that make them no longer sex objects?

Or does it in fact emphasize the sexual nature of the object, that it is shameful and needs to be hidden in a big black bag?

There is a difference between asking someone you're interested in sexually to spend some time with you, and harrassing them. (This point goes equally for debaters on both sides of this issue.)
Asking someone other than a minor if they want to fuck is never harassment, it's merely a question. Commenting on their personal appearance and sexuality combined with an offer of sexual congress is perfectly lawful free speech in any public place. If you don't want your personal appearance commented upon and sexualized questions asked in public, then don't go out in public. It's just that simple. Nobody has a right to suppress someone else's expressions of sexual interest merely because the advances are unwelcome, that's just part of living on earth. Such advances only become criminal harassment if they are repeated after indications have been given that such advances are unwelcome.

But everybody gets to give, and everybody else (other than children) has to put up with the first "Hi, I think you're sexy, wanna fuck?" That's an expression of free speech.

If you don't like that, then never leave your house or wear a big black bag.
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Re: Another Skepchick War! Dr. Marty Klein crossed the line

Post by orpheus » Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:35 pm

:pop:

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Re: Another Skepchick War! Dr. Marty Klein crossed the line

Post by hadespussercats » Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:09 am

Coito ergo sum wrote:
hadespussercats wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:
Robert_S wrote:
Seth wrote:Sounds like her position should be bent over a table naked with her hands handcuffed behind her for the next meeting. Maybe that would loosen her tight ass up a little.
Yeah, that's kinda creepy... More than kinda actually. I'm going to assume you were illustrating a point unless you say differently.

I usually think very little of her and other women's complaints until I read the bizarre amount of hostile sexism in the reactions. I mean, what is it about women bringing up sexism that turns an astonishing number of my fellow males into stark raving /b/tards?

I think the reason I am slow to see some things is that I ask myself "how would I come to make such a gaffe?". Now it occurs to me that maybe there's a lot more sexually fucked up men than me out there than I might think...
On the Skepchick thread? There were "hostile sexist reactions?" I didn't read any. I did see where any expression of dissent to the assertion that handing the card was a serious incident was squelched and silenced.
Did you actually read what you quoted?
I did. Can you direct me to the "hostile sexist" reactions? The Skepchicks don't even brook dissent, much less "hostile sexist."
Seth's reaction, right there.

As for the rest of your recent responses to my posts, I don't know why none of them indicate that I in fact agree that the card-giving was not harassment.

This is another example of how, when you break down posts to digest them piece by piece, you miss important chunks of content and/or meaning.
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Re: Another Skepchick War! Dr. Marty Klein crossed the line

Post by Drewish » Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:25 am

Are there t-shirts that say, "Wanna have sex?" on the front and, "Is this sexual harassment?" on the back?
Nobody expects me...

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Re: Another Skepchick War! Dr. Marty Klein crossed the line

Post by Robert_S » Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:26 am

To be fair, there hasn't been very much here, but I've seen some very fucked up responses to her and other feminists.

However:
Seth wrote:Asking someone other than a minor if they want to fuck is never harassment, it's merely a question. Commenting on their personal appearance and sexuality combined with an offer of sexual congress is perfectly lawful free speech in any public place. If you don't want your personal appearance commented upon and sexualized questions asked in public, then don't go out in public. It's just that simple. Nobody has a right to suppress someone else's expressions of sexual interest merely because the advances are unwelcome, that's just part of living on earth. Such advances only become criminal harassment if they are repeated after indications have been given that such advances are unwelcome.

But everybody gets to give, and everybody else (other than children) has to put up with the first "Hi, I think you're sexy, wanna fuck?" That's an expression of free speech.

If you don't like that, then never leave your house or wear a big black bag.
Wrong. How many damn times does it have to be repeated: Just because someone has and ought to have the legal right to do something, it does not follow that it is the right thing to do!

If you can't tolerate getting propositioned or the thought of it, then by all means "never leave your house or wear a big black bag". If you don't like it under certain circumstances and done in certain styles and think there are good reasons for it to stop, then you have every right to use your free speech to say so and try to change the prevailing attitudes. If anyone cannot tolerate a critique, valid or not so much, of how they behave sexually even if it's within the law then maybe they should stay home and wank.
What I've found with a few discussions I've had lately is this self-satisfaction that people express with their proffessed open mindedness. In realty it ammounts to wilful ignorance and intellectual cowardice as they are choosing to not form any sort of opinion on a particular topic. Basically "I don't know and I'm not going to look at any evidence because I'm quite happy on this fence."
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Re: Another Skepchick War! Dr. Marty Klein crossed the line

Post by hadespussercats » Wed Jun 20, 2012 12:50 am

Robert_S wrote:To be fair, there hasn't been very much here, but I've seen some very fucked up responses to her and other feminists.

However:
Seth wrote:Asking someone other than a minor if they want to fuck is never harassment, it's merely a question. Commenting on their personal appearance and sexuality combined with an offer of sexual congress is perfectly lawful free speech in any public place. If you don't want your personal appearance commented upon and sexualized questions asked in public, then don't go out in public. It's just that simple. Nobody has a right to suppress someone else's expressions of sexual interest merely because the advances are unwelcome, that's just part of living on earth. Such advances only become criminal harassment if they are repeated after indications have been given that such advances are unwelcome.

But everybody gets to give, and everybody else (other than children) has to put up with the first "Hi, I think you're sexy, wanna fuck?" That's an expression of free speech.

If you don't like that, then never leave your house or wear a big black bag.
Wrong. How many damn times does it have to be repeated: Just because someone has and ought to have the legal right to do something, it does not follow that it is the right thing to do!

If you can't tolerate getting propositioned or the thought of it, then by all means "never leave your house or wear a big black bag". If you don't like it under certain circumstances and done in certain styles and think there are good reasons for it to stop, then you have every right to use your free speech to say so and try to change the prevailing attitudes. If anyone cannot tolerate a critique, valid or not so much, of how they behave sexually even if it's within the law then maybe they should stay home and wank.
:clap: :clap: :clap:
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Re: Another Skepchick War! Dr. Marty Klein crossed the line

Post by JimC » Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:50 am

hadespussercats wrote:
coito wrote:
I did. Can you direct me to the "hostile sexist" reactions? The Skepchicks don't even brook dissent, much less "hostile sexist."
Seth's reaction, right there.

As for the rest of your recent responses to my posts, I don't know why none of them indicate that I in fact agree that the card-giving was not harassment.

This is another example of how, when you break down posts to digest them piece by piece, you miss important chunks of content and/or meaning.
Exactly. One can be somewhat critical of the original handing out of the card, without agreeing with the SkepChick cries of harassment...




edited by hades, 6/20/2012, to fix quote formatting.
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Re: Another Skepchick War! Dr. Marty Klein crossed the line

Post by Jason » Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:08 am

I'm rather understanding of these alleged (I haven't seen them) extreme sexists responses. It's a knee-jerk reaction to a piece of splendid stupidity meant to convey virulent disagreement with the author and, probably, not the obvious connotation you'd pick up at first. A bit of intellectual legerdemain, if you will.

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Re: Another Skepchick War! Dr. Marty Klein crossed the line

Post by maiforpeace » Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:20 am

PordFrefect wrote:I'm rather understanding of these alleged (I haven't seen them) extreme sexists responses. It's a knee-jerk reaction to a piece of splendid stupidity meant to convey virulent disagreement with the author and, probably, not the obvious connotation you'd pick up at first. A bit of intellectual legerdemain, if you will.
Very much...

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Re: Another Skepchick War! Dr. Marty Klein crossed the line

Post by Robert_S » Wed Jun 20, 2012 5:55 am

maiforpeace wrote:
PordFrefect wrote:I'm rather understanding of these alleged (I haven't seen them) extreme sexists responses. It's a knee-jerk reaction to a piece of splendid stupidity meant to convey virulent disagreement with the author and, probably, not the obvious connotation you'd pick up at first. A bit of intellectual legerdemain, if you will.
Very much...

:this:

How these turn into the wars they do, I never get. Except that it takes at least two to battle.
Yeah. I don't think right now that this was a case of harassment, but when was the last time you've seen someone suggest assrapeing a Christian for claiming that not being able to have "In God We Trust" on the money was oppression? There's something more going on here than our usual reaction to an overreaction.

Seriously you guys! Seth, our favorite chew-toy, has suggested assraping a fellow atheist and I'm the only one who bats an eye? WTF?
What I've found with a few discussions I've had lately is this self-satisfaction that people express with their proffessed open mindedness. In realty it ammounts to wilful ignorance and intellectual cowardice as they are choosing to not form any sort of opinion on a particular topic. Basically "I don't know and I'm not going to look at any evidence because I'm quite happy on this fence."
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Re: Another Skepchick War! Dr. Marty Klein crossed the line

Post by Hermit » Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:48 am

Robert_S wrote:Seriously you guys! Seth, our favorite chew-toy, has suggested assraping a fellow atheist and I'm the only one who bats an eye? WTF?
I scroll past most of Seth's rants, and I only skim most of the rest of them. At the RDF I tried to take him up on this sort of thing. Now I just shrug my shoulders most of the time when I read his effluence and move on. If I had to describe his posts in one phrase I'd say "boring and best ignored". He is one of a few other members I adopt that approach to.
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Re: Another Skepchick War! Dr. Marty Klein crossed the line

Post by Azathoth » Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:50 am

Hermit wrote:
Robert_S wrote:Seriously you guys! Seth, our favorite chew-toy, has suggested assraping a fellow atheist and I'm the only one who bats an eye? WTF?
I scroll past most of Seth's rants, and I only skim most of the rest of them. At the RDF I tried to take him up on this sort of thing. Now I just shrug my shoulders most of the time when I read his effluence and move on. If I had to describe his posts in one phrase I'd say "boring and best ignored". He is one of a few other members I adopt that approach to.
:this:

If you engage him the thread becomes the seth show. I like this thread and don't want it spammed up with ranty WoTs
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