Dawkins sues Josh Timonen 2

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chalkers
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen 2

Post by chalkers » Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:57 pm

Here's a quote from Richard when I handed in my notice after they edited the credits to all videos removing not only Josh and Maureen's names but also other composers, editors and other contractors to Upper Branch . These people would have had contracts with Upper Branch which would have had some stipulation that they should be credited duly. They were whitewashing, altering history, spinning an narrative and I wasn't having it. (Incidentally they never re-launched the videos.)
...
I think you are hearing only one side of the story. I too was deeply upset by the tone of some of the comments about Josh. But truly, Andrew, hard (INCOMPREHENSIBLY hard) to believe as it is, it really does look as though the law suit is necessary. The evidence is truly compelling.

Andrew, lawsuits are designed to get to the bottom of cases like this. Why not wait till the Judge gives his verdict? If he decides in favour of Josh, of course I will apologise profusely and try to make everything better. If he decides against Josh, well, then you should make your decision on what to do. But please don't prejudge the issue. You don't have to wait long. I believe the case is coming up during November.
...
*italics added

The evidence wasn't clearly "compelling" enough and wasn't there, and the Judge gave their verdict. He thought the case was coming up in November 2010, then he found out it'd be January 2011. But we now know it took longer.

Because of all the faffing and dodging the RDFRS dragged the whole process out and didn't produce any evidence, "compelling" or otherwise, to back their claims. Emails were "lost". The Foundation's emails were on Google Apps for Domain which means IMAP. People heavily used .Mac and Me.com accounts, all IMAP again. I'm not saying some emails may have been lost but the people who would have been involved would have copies, trustees like Andy Thompson, Claire Enders. Liz Cornwell had lots of email accounts that she used for RDFRS business. It seems unreasonable to me that people with iPhones, iPads, and Macs would use POP3 only on their Macs for email.

You'd think that you'd have documentation to back up your claims before you use the legal system to "get to the bottom of cases like this". He also sounded a little hurt about the "tone" the lawsuit was written in, didn't he read it. Seems odd?

Blaine Greenburg, the lawyer, was a friend of Greg Langer, a newly appointed trustee. Note all the posts about how Richard has been riling against lawyers and law, and Greg's comment on that thread. Shortly after, due to what Mike Cornwell (Liz's ex-husband who works for the Foundation) described as politics, Greg was no longer a trustee. (And neither was Todd at that point. I think Todd brought Greg on board.). That may explain something about the level of professionalism and a price tag associated with his services.

Blaine commented on at least this YouTube video. Is that common practice?
Love your video! Move to L.A., please, I'd like you on my jury. (Blaine Greenberg, Esq., the lawyer who filed the action you comment on in this video.) We're watching!
P.S. Please let people who watch this know the Trustees brought this action to recover all the missing money so the proceeds from purchases at the online store won't go to waste.

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lordpasternack
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen 2

Post by lordpasternack » Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:31 pm

Andrew - just a suggestion: you could perhaps post small screenshots of emails between yourself and Richard, with only Richard's personal email address hidden, instead of just copying and pasting the text. This makes your excerpts of emails posted more compelling - more robust. Just saying. :tea:
Then they for sudden joy did weep,
And I for sorrow sung,
That such a king should play bo-peep,
And go the fools among.
Prithee, nuncle, keep a schoolmaster that can teach
thy fool to lie: I would fain learn to lie.

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lordpasternack
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen 2

Post by lordpasternack » Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:43 pm

chalkers wrote:You'd think that you'd have documentation to back up your claims before you use the legal system to "get to the bottom of cases like this". He also sounded a little hurt about the "tone" the lawsuit was written in, didn't he read it. Seems odd?
Is it possible that he means the tone of comments coming from members of the public, in light of the news of the lawsuit? Or comments from people within RDFRS? :dunno:

As for their lawyer's professionalism - it also reflects badly on RDFRS - on Liz Cornwell, Andy Thomson and indeed Richard, that they made such an arse of keeping check on the situation, from the seed all the way through to it unceremoniously withering and dying.

You can't just blame the lawyer, or the trustees, or the teaboy, or the postman, or everyone else miscellaneous beneath you in an organisation - when you're near the top and the buck stops with you. The long and short of it is that you obviously suck very badly at management - and excel in deflecting blame, manipulating people, and defending your own self-interests.
Then they for sudden joy did weep,
And I for sorrow sung,
That such a king should play bo-peep,
And go the fools among.
Prithee, nuncle, keep a schoolmaster that can teach
thy fool to lie: I would fain learn to lie.

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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen 2

Post by Tyrannical » Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:50 pm

I hold no sympathy for Dawkins as he is an intellectual coward. Happy to attack the religious but as a scientists has no stomach for revealing racial realities. Plus he personally approved my banning from his site :{D

I haven't been keeping up with the legal discussion, but last I checked Dawkins signed a contract he shouldn't have that gave almost all legal rights to Timonen :hehe:

Have I missed anything?
A rational skeptic should be able to discuss and debate anything, no matter how much they may personally disagree with that point of view. Discussing a subject is not agreeing with it, but understanding it.

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Azathoth
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen 2

Post by Azathoth » Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:53 pm

Image
Outside the ordered universe is that amorphous blight of nethermost confusion which blasphemes and bubbles at the center of all infinity—the boundless daemon sultan Azathoth, whose name no lips dare speak aloud, and who gnaws hungrily in inconceivable, unlighted chambers beyond time and space amidst the muffled, maddening beating of vile drums and the thin monotonous whine of accursed flutes.

Code: Select all

// Replaces with spaces the braces in cases where braces in places cause stasis 
   $str = str_replace(array("\{","\}")," ",$str);

chalkers
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen 2

Post by chalkers » Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:59 pm

lordpasternack wrote: Is it possible that he means the tone of comments coming from members of the public, in light of the news of the lawsuit? Or comments from people within RDFRS? :dunno:
No. It was with regard to the lawsuit itself. I'll dig out some Skype convos when I have time. Basically I was tooing and froing on Skype with him when he was in the Airport and eMailing.

How's this for some context. (Although screenshots could be faked!)

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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen 2

Post by lordpasternack » Wed Mar 28, 2012 4:07 pm

Of course screenshots can be faked - but it's a little more laborious than faking text quotes, and a lot easier to slip up, and forget to 'doctor' a minor detail that gives the game up that it's shooped. :tea:
Then they for sudden joy did weep,
And I for sorrow sung,
That such a king should play bo-peep,
And go the fools among.
Prithee, nuncle, keep a schoolmaster that can teach
thy fool to lie: I would fain learn to lie.

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lordpasternack
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen 2

Post by lordpasternack » Wed Mar 28, 2012 4:11 pm

Chalkers' screenshot placed inline - for easier following:
notice.png
:tea:
Then they for sudden joy did weep,
And I for sorrow sung,
That such a king should play bo-peep,
And go the fools among.
Prithee, nuncle, keep a schoolmaster that can teach
thy fool to lie: I would fain learn to lie.

Coito ergo sum
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen 2

Post by Coito ergo sum » Wed Mar 28, 2012 4:13 pm

lordpasternack wrote:I heard vaguely that Richard specifically wanted practically zero involvement in the case.
Other than losing, being held in contempt is the worst thing that could happen. At some point, the attorneys would have notified him, if only to cover their own asses. If he didn't give a shit whether his nonprofit was found in contempt of court and ordered to pay the defendant's legal fees and costs associated with it, then he got exactly what he deserved.

lordpasternack wrote: It would not surprise me if he had tried to find some way to delegate EVERYTHING - to delegate everything, in his own particular way of cluelessly delegating to individuals who are in all likelihood as incompetent as he is.
Could be. But, when you pull a gun, you can't expect that the other side won't shoot back, and if you delegate to someone else to do your fighting for you, well, then you better trust them not to fuck up.

Avoiding contempt here ought to have taken only a few moments of Dawkins time to read what documents and information were requested. Provide such information and documents. If the answers were "I don't know and I don't have the documents" then that is a perfectly acceptable answer (unless he doesn't have them because he destroyed them).

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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen 2

Post by lordpasternack » Wed Mar 28, 2012 4:23 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:...if you delegate to someone else to do your fighting for you, well, then you better trust them not to fuck up.
Oh he does trust, alright - he does trust in bucketloads... Except that I suppose it's a bit more like credulous gulliblity, combined with negligence.

The worst of it is - I really want to make a mocking 'DERP' picture of Richard now, in light of this - but I can't bring myself to, because he's just so well-meaningly naive, and fucking NICE. The fucking aggravatingly stupid, naive, negligent, gullible, well-meaning nice bastard! ;ob;
Then they for sudden joy did weep,
And I for sorrow sung,
That such a king should play bo-peep,
And go the fools among.
Prithee, nuncle, keep a schoolmaster that can teach
thy fool to lie: I would fain learn to lie.

Coito ergo sum
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen 2

Post by Coito ergo sum » Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:35 pm

lordpasternack wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:...if you delegate to someone else to do your fighting for you, well, then you better trust them not to fuck up.
Oh he does trust, alright - he does trust in bucketloads... Except that I suppose it's a bit more like credulous gulliblity, combined with negligence.

The worst of it is - I really want to make a mocking 'DERP' picture of Richard now, in light of this - but I can't bring myself to, because he's just so well-meaningly naive, and fucking NICE. The fucking aggravatingly stupid, naive, negligent, gullible, well-meaning nice bastard! ;ob;
The problem is, it becomes hard to chalk it up to mere naive trustworthiness, and vesting responsibility in negligent underlings. He's paying $400+ an hour for an attorney file court papers for an organization for which Dawkins has a fiduciary responsibility. It's one thing to miss a discovery deadline and fail to produce some information. That happens all the time. It's another thing to be notified of that failure, to be given a chance to fix it, to be called into court on a motion to compel, to be ordered by the court to comply, to receive a copy of that order, to ignore that order and fail to comply, and then be called back into court on motion for contempt sanctions, and still fail to comply...

There is something more than mere trust going on there, and this is not mere naive, negligence or gullibility. It's like someone beats him over the head with a bat for an hour and he still doesn't turn around to see who is doing it.

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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen 2

Post by lordpasternack » Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:02 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:It's like someone beats him over the head with a bat for an hour and he still doesn't turn around to see who is doing it.
Yep - and I was once one of those people wielding one of those bats. In my case he at least did eventually turn around and growl at me... :pardon:

God knows the bloody frustration that existed between Richard and I for some time. The frustration. And my friend John_fi_Skye knows precisely what I mean there.
Then they for sudden joy did weep,
And I for sorrow sung,
That such a king should play bo-peep,
And go the fools among.
Prithee, nuncle, keep a schoolmaster that can teach
thy fool to lie: I would fain learn to lie.

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lordpasternack
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen 2

Post by lordpasternack » Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:20 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote: Then his RDFRS ought to be fired
Of course, it should be added for completeness that there was a reason for why Richard had created a pseudonymous email account, back in the day, under the name 'Roger Derwen' - to converse with the pseudonymous 'Marion Mistress' - aka, Robin Elisabeth Cornwell, aka, the Chief Exec of RDFRS US...

Can you say conflict of interest, boys and girls? ;)
Then they for sudden joy did weep,
And I for sorrow sung,
That such a king should play bo-peep,
And go the fools among.
Prithee, nuncle, keep a schoolmaster that can teach
thy fool to lie: I would fain learn to lie.

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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen 2

Post by borealis » Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:43 pm

lordpasternack wrote:Chalkers' screenshot placed inline - for easier following:
notice.png
:tea:
If only RD had made his contracts by gmail (or facebook), there wouldn't be any lost emails. Copy of everything, even deleted stuff, would lie in some secret database. :tea:

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lordpasternack
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen 2

Post by lordpasternack » Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:44 pm

borealis wrote:
lordpasternack wrote:Chalkers' screenshot placed inline - for easier following:
notice.png
:tea:
If only RD had made his contracts by gmail (or facebook), there wouldn't be any lost emails. Copy of everything, even deleted stuff, would lie in some secret database. :tea:
Yeah. It would be some fukken saved... :teef:
Then they for sudden joy did weep,
And I for sorrow sung,
That such a king should play bo-peep,
And go the fools among.
Prithee, nuncle, keep a schoolmaster that can teach
thy fool to lie: I would fain learn to lie.

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