Dawkins sues Josh Timonen 2

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lordpasternack
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen 2

Post by lordpasternack » Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:11 pm

Yep. I'm in the process of discovering a lot more details myself. I may have to eat some past words at some point. I hadn't bargained for Richard being so fucking stupid, to be honest. :tea:
Then they for sudden joy did weep,
And I for sorrow sung,
That such a king should play bo-peep,
And go the fools among.
Prithee, nuncle, keep a schoolmaster that can teach
thy fool to lie: I would fain learn to lie.

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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen 2

Post by Coito ergo sum » Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:18 pm

lordpasternack wrote:Yep. I'm in the process of discovering a lot more details myself. I may have to eat some past words at some point. I hadn't bargained for Richard being so fucking stupid, to be honest. :tea:
It doesn't sound "stupid" from the bits and pieces I've read so far. It sounds like there were a bunch of emails and such that he wouldn't want anyone to read, so they were "lost."

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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen 2

Post by lordpasternack » Mon Dec 12, 2011 10:19 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:
lordpasternack wrote:Yep. I'm in the process of discovering a lot more details myself. I may have to eat some past words at some point. I hadn't bargained for Richard being so fucking stupid, to be honest. :tea:
It doesn't sound "stupid" from the bits and pieces I've read so far. It sounds like there were a bunch of emails and such that he wouldn't want anyone to read, so they were "lost."
It's still stupid to waste a lot of money on litigating only to find that out, though, especially when you paint yourself as Mr Reason and Science - and when you risk possibly being countersued for some kind of defamation. And being pointed and laughed at, when people find those "lost" emails, and lay into you. :tea:
Then they for sudden joy did weep,
And I for sorrow sung,
That such a king should play bo-peep,
And go the fools among.
Prithee, nuncle, keep a schoolmaster that can teach
thy fool to lie: I would fain learn to lie.

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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen 2

Post by Coito ergo sum » Mon Dec 12, 2011 10:24 pm

lordpasternack wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:
lordpasternack wrote:Yep. I'm in the process of discovering a lot more details myself. I may have to eat some past words at some point. I hadn't bargained for Richard being so fucking stupid, to be honest. :tea:
It doesn't sound "stupid" from the bits and pieces I've read so far. It sounds like there were a bunch of emails and such that he wouldn't want anyone to read, so they were "lost."
It's still stupid to waste a lot of money on litigating only to find that out, though, especially when you paint yourself as Mr Reason and Science - and when you risk possibly being countersued for some kind of defamation. And being pointed and laughed at, when people find those "lost" emails, and lay into you. :tea:
I go back to my original theory -- there was likely a concern that they were running this online store under the banner of the Richard Dawkins Foundation, a 501(c)(3) organization, and not complying with the accounting and tax requirements and other formalities that a nonprofit 501(c)(3) organization has to engage in. That would entail possible loss of 501(c)(3) status and possible liability to the Directors (including but not limited to Richard Dawkins).....UNLESS the directors of the 501(c)(3) organization were deceived and ripped off, and were otherwise of the impression everything was being handled properly....

If, of course, one were to make that kind of claim, the first question anyone from the IRS would ask would be "well, did you go after the offending persons?" And, now they can say "why, yes we did, as much as we could....unfortunately, there were a bunch of snafus and and we just couldn't recover anything...." etc. Either way, they have some cover.

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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen 2

Post by Svartalf » Mon Dec 12, 2011 10:37 pm

mmmh... given the care given to what would count as evidence in such a case, wouldn't the directors be liable for criminal negligence, even if outright fraud cannot be proven, and the foundation's status subject to scrapping anyway?
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen 2

Post by Coito ergo sum » Mon Dec 12, 2011 10:41 pm

Svartalf wrote:mmmh... given the care given to what would count as evidence in such a case, wouldn't the directors be liable for criminal negligence, even if outright fraud cannot be proven, and the foundation's status subject to scrapping anyway?
Not criminal, unless they took money.

But, there would be a serious issue with loss of 501(c)(3) status, which means they would be liable for income tax....and then they'd have the embarrassment and cost associated with loss of that status, and with trying to reacquire it or start a whole new charity (with the directors not being allowed to be the directors of the new entity).

They could also be civilly liable.

And, there was also a question of all the people buying from the store, who thought they were buying from a 501(c)(3) charitable organization....but, they weren't..they were buying from "Josh Timonen's store" which was run under the banner of Dawkins Foundation. See the problem there? They would have possible false advertising issues and raising money under false pretenses. Going after Timonen makes it clear that Dawkins is claiming to have been acting in good faith and got hoodwinked.

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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen 2

Post by lordpasternack » Mon Dec 12, 2011 10:49 pm

I can't help but feel a bit of schadenfreude about the fact that RDFRS is being thoroughly spitroasted right now by genuine threats to their charitable status which they have entirely landed themselves in. Especially given their grossly misplaced priorities about threats to said status. I want to see the coup de grace, to be honest. Maybe Richard might just learn something - although he's been completely unaltered by several bitter learning experiences already.
Then they for sudden joy did weep,
And I for sorrow sung,
That such a king should play bo-peep,
And go the fools among.
Prithee, nuncle, keep a schoolmaster that can teach
thy fool to lie: I would fain learn to lie.

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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen 2

Post by Svartalf » Mon Dec 12, 2011 10:52 pm

except that his action turned void after what would have supported his claim of having been deceived suspiciously went missing... If he can't prove in court that his good faith was abused, would his going through the empty motions count as a demonstration of said alleged good faith?
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen 2

Post by Coito ergo sum » Mon Dec 12, 2011 10:55 pm

lordpasternack wrote:I can't help but feel a bit of schadenfreude about the fact that RDFRS is being thoroughly spitroasted right now by genuine threats to their charitable status which they have entirely landed themselves in. Especially given their grossly misplaced priorities about threats to said status. I want to see the coup de grace, to be honest. Maybe Richard might just learn something - although he's been completely unaltered by several bitter learning experiences already.
The way you write, I get the impression that you know Dawkins personally. Are you friends/acquaintances with him?

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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen 2

Post by klr » Mon Dec 12, 2011 10:56 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:
lordpasternack wrote:I can't help but feel a bit of schadenfreude about the fact that RDFRS is being thoroughly spitroasted right now by genuine threats to their charitable status which they have entirely landed themselves in. Especially given their grossly misplaced priorities about threats to said status. I want to see the coup de grace, to be honest. Maybe Richard might just learn something - although he's been completely unaltered by several bitter learning experiences already.
The way you write, I get the impression that you know Dawkins personally. Are you friends/acquaintances with him?
She's certainly given him lots of advice, not all of it solicited. :whistle:
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen 2

Post by lordpasternack » Mon Dec 12, 2011 11:05 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:
lordpasternack wrote:I can't help but feel a bit of schadenfreude about the fact that RDFRS is being thoroughly spitroasted right now by genuine threats to their charitable status which they have entirely landed themselves in. Especially given their grossly misplaced priorities about threats to said status. I want to see the coup de grace, to be honest. Maybe Richard might just learn something - although he's been completely unaltered by several bitter learning experiences already.
The way you write, I get the impression that you know Dawkins personally. Are you friends/acquaintances with him?
Ex e-stalker, ex-fancier, occasional correspondent, and person with contacts who have known him better than myself. I've observed him. He's interacted with me a few times, in public and in private. He wears his heart on his sleeve mostly. I've been involved in some way in ongoing web dramas with him. I pick things up. You see what makes him tick, and the same mistakes he makes repetitively. I've seen some private emails sent to others. Some of the words speak volumes. I pick up cues, one way or another, about people. I'm perceptive.
Last edited by lordpasternack on Mon Dec 12, 2011 11:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Then they for sudden joy did weep,
And I for sorrow sung,
That such a king should play bo-peep,
And go the fools among.
Prithee, nuncle, keep a schoolmaster that can teach
thy fool to lie: I would fain learn to lie.

User avatar
lordpasternack
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen 2

Post by lordpasternack » Mon Dec 12, 2011 11:08 pm

klr wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:
lordpasternack wrote:I can't help but feel a bit of schadenfreude about the fact that RDFRS is being thoroughly spitroasted right now by genuine threats to their charitable status which they have entirely landed themselves in. Especially given their grossly misplaced priorities about threats to said status. I want to see the coup de grace, to be honest. Maybe Richard might just learn something - although he's been completely unaltered by several bitter learning experiences already.
The way you write, I get the impression that you know Dawkins personally. Are you friends/acquaintances with him?
She's certainly given him lots of advice, not all of it solicited. :whistle:
And not all of it diplomatic. But all of it honest, sincere, truthful, correct, and wise to the best of my knowledge - so help me quixotism! :lay:
Then they for sudden joy did weep,
And I for sorrow sung,
That such a king should play bo-peep,
And go the fools among.
Prithee, nuncle, keep a schoolmaster that can teach
thy fool to lie: I would fain learn to lie.

Coito ergo sum
Posts: 32040
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 2:03 pm
Contact:

Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen 2

Post by Coito ergo sum » Mon Dec 12, 2011 11:12 pm

lordpasternack wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:
lordpasternack wrote:I can't help but feel a bit of schadenfreude about the fact that RDFRS is being thoroughly spitroasted right now by genuine threats to their charitable status which they have entirely landed themselves in. Especially given their grossly misplaced priorities about threats to said status. I want to see the coup de grace, to be honest. Maybe Richard might just learn something - although he's been completely unaltered by several bitter learning experiences already.
The way you write, I get the impression that you know Dawkins personally. Are you friends/acquaintances with him?
Ex e-stalker, ex-fancier, occasional correspondent, and person with contacts who have known him better than myself. I've observed him. He's interacted with me a few times, in public and in private. He wears his heart on his sleeve mostly. I've been involved in some way in ongoing web dramas with him. I pick things up. You see what makes him tick, and the same mistakes he makes repetitively. I've seen some private emails sent to others. Some of the words speak volumes. I pick up cues, one way or another, about people. I'm perceptive.
Hmmm....am I reading between the lines correctly?

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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen 2

Post by klr » Mon Dec 12, 2011 11:16 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:
lordpasternack wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:
lordpasternack wrote:I can't help but feel a bit of schadenfreude about the fact that RDFRS is being thoroughly spitroasted right now by genuine threats to their charitable status which they have entirely landed themselves in. Especially given their grossly misplaced priorities about threats to said status. I want to see the coup de grace, to be honest. Maybe Richard might just learn something - although he's been completely unaltered by several bitter learning experiences already.
The way you write, I get the impression that you know Dawkins personally. Are you friends/acquaintances with him?
Ex e-stalker, ex-fancier, occasional correspondent, and person with contacts who have known him better than myself. I've observed him. He's interacted with me a few times, in public and in private. He wears his heart on his sleeve mostly. I've been involved in some way in ongoing web dramas with him. I pick things up. You see what makes him tick, and the same mistakes he makes repetitively. I've seen some private emails sent to others. Some of the words speak volumes. I pick up cues, one way or another, about people. I'm perceptive.
Hmmm....am I reading between the lines correctly?
I think "No !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" is the answer.

Unless I am in turn reading too much between the lines. :D
God has no place within these walls, just like facts have no place within organized religion. - Superintendent Chalmers

It's not up to us to choose which laws we want to obey. If it were, I'd kill everyone who looked at me cock-eyed! - Rex Banner

The Bluebird of Happiness long absent from his life, Ned is visited by the Chicken of Depression. - Gary Larson

:mob: :comp: :mob:

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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen 2

Post by lordpasternack » Mon Dec 12, 2011 11:24 pm

I should add that it's not just Richard that I pick up stuff about - it's those around him, too. Their vexations over individual users posting cartoons, when they should be worrying about far more substantial aspects of their reputation and integrity. The way Richard chops and changes his opinions in tune with his protégés. The way at least one usually outwardly nice person likes to be anonymous to let out her more passive-aggressive side in safety (or so she thought, till I knocked on her virtual door and gave her a little telling off, and assured her I wouldn't be fucked with). You just can't help pick that sorta stuff up once you've stuck your head down the rabbit hole. :what:
Then they for sudden joy did weep,
And I for sorrow sung,
That such a king should play bo-peep,
And go the fools among.
Prithee, nuncle, keep a schoolmaster that can teach
thy fool to lie: I would fain learn to lie.

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