Why creationists can laugh at atheist feminists?

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Re: Why creationists can laugh at atheist feminists?

Post by Forty Two » Wed Dec 09, 2015 8:51 pm

Śiva wrote:I'd like to know what your issue is with many feminists being anti-capitalist.. or "Marxist".
Well, the issue I have with anyone being Marxist, or anticaptialist in general. In the case of Marxists they are, and in the case of anticapitalists they tend to be, advancing a horrid ideology which tends toward authoritarianism, is decidedly illiberal, and is a recipe for disaster.

One, "from each according to ability to give and to each according to his need." A basic pillar of Marxism, and a recipe for oppression and slavery. It destroys the voluntariness - the volition - of the individual when the State or the community gets to direct what "each" has the "ability" to give. They aren't saying "from each according to his wants" or "from each according to his willingness to give or do" -- no no. It is intended to be and as applied is a directive that individuals do what the community or the state says they ought to do. And, "to each according to need" eliminates the volition of the individual in terms of pursuit of happiness. You don't get what you want, or what you can work to acquire. You get what you "need" and ONLY what you need. It doesn't say "a bare minimum safety net to protect the poor if they need assistance." No. it says "to each" according to their need. It's not "to each according to their need, and then everyone can pursue more than than their needs if they see fit to do so." Marx could have added that if he wanted to, but he didn't. Because it's not what's intended.

Two, Marxism leads to an authoritarian state. A socialist state by its very nature erodes the rights of its citizens. The American economist Milton Friedman argued that under socialism, the absence of a free market economy would inevitably lead to an authoritarian political regime. Friedman's view was also shared by Friedrich Hayek and John Maynard Keynes, who both believed that capitalism is a precondition for freedom to flourish in a nation state. Note, Keynes, of Keynesian economics fame, also agreed that capitalism is a precondition for freedom to flourish in a nation state. Capitalism is freedom. Similarly, Mikhail Bakunin showed that Marxist regimes would lead to the "despotic control of the populace by a new and not at all numerous aristocracy."

Three, Marxist economics is absurd, and its "labor theory" of value is simply wrong, and discounts the contribution of capital and other sources, and it discounts or ignores the role of demand in economics, relying almost entirely on supply. The absurdity of labor being the source of all value and the reality that the subjective individual evaluations 'creating' all value destroys Marx's economic conclusions and his social theories. Keynes - again of the Keynesian school of economics -- referred to Das Kapital as "an obsolete textbook which I know to be not only scientifically erroneous but without interest or application for the modern world" - so, the whole economic underpinning of Marxism is bollocks.

Four, the notion of Marxist feminism with women being an oppressed class, like the proletariat, is absurd, because women come in all economic classes, and the idea that women are, qua women, an oppressed, marginalized group is a fiction.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Why creationists can laugh at atheist feminists?

Post by Jason » Wed Dec 09, 2015 8:54 pm

JimC wrote:
Śiva wrote:The wage gap is not debunked. It is real. At least here in Canada.
It is also possible to measure the gender wage gap on the basis of hourly wages. The most recent Statistics Canada data (2011) shows that the gender wage gap in Ontario is 26% for full–time, full–year workers. This means that for every $1.00 earned by a male worker, a female worker earns 74 cents.
However, this would be for a variety of reasons, mainly to do with what sort of jobs are on average done by either sex. In regulated industries with industrial awards, I'm sure you would see the same as in Oz, in that people doing the same work (e.g. teaching) get precisely the same wage.
It's true that there are many contributing factors to the wage gap, however it certainly does exist. According to the commission that quote is from 10-15% of the cause is down to pure gender discrimination. Further studies have been commissioned to find out exactly what the gap is in different employment sectors - so we don't have to rely on workforce-wide statistics.
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Re: Why creationists can laugh at atheist feminists?

Post by Forty Two » Wed Dec 09, 2015 8:56 pm

Śiva wrote:Cool story bro. But what's your beef with feminists having political agendas outside feminism - aka "Marxism"
Well, I have no beef with them "having" a political agenda outside feminism as such. I do have a problem with Marxism, as I described a few of my points against Marxism above.

Feminism is itself an ideology and an agenda. I expect them to have agendas. But, when they advance notions such as that capitalism is antithetical to feminism and other such tripe, it leads them to espouse some of the ludicrous economic and social positions they do these days.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Why creationists can laugh at atheist feminists?

Post by Forty Two » Wed Dec 09, 2015 8:58 pm

Śiva wrote:
JimC wrote:
Śiva wrote:The wage gap is not debunked. It is real. At least here in Canada.
It is also possible to measure the gender wage gap on the basis of hourly wages. The most recent Statistics Canada data (2011) shows that the gender wage gap in Ontario is 26% for full–time, full–year workers. This means that for every $1.00 earned by a male worker, a female worker earns 74 cents.
However, this would be for a variety of reasons, mainly to do with what sort of jobs are on average done by either sex. In regulated industries with industrial awards, I'm sure you would see the same as in Oz, in that people doing the same work (e.g. teaching) get precisely the same wage.
It's true that there are many contributing factors to the wage gap, however it certainly does exist. According to the commission that quote is from 10-15% of the causes is down to pure gender discrimination. Further studies have been commissioned to find out exactly what the gap is in different employment sectors - so we don't have to rely on workforce-wide statistics.
No no. "Statisticians" estimated that as much as 10-15% MAY be caused by discrimination. In other words, they could see plainly from the numbers that 85% to 90% of the difference in earnings between men and women had nothing to do with discrimination, but they didn't have an answer from the stats for at most 10 or 15% of it. That doesn't mean the 10 or 15% is definitely discrimination. It means that's what the numbers leaves open as possible discrimination. It could still be because of non discriminatory factors which the stats did not consider.
“When I was in college, I took a terrorism class. ... The thing that was interesting in the class was every time the professor said ‘Al Qaeda’ his shoulders went up, But you know, it is that you don’t say ‘America’ with an intensity, you don’t say ‘England’ with the intensity. You don’t say ‘the army’ with the intensity,” she continued. “... But you say these names [Al Qaeda] because you want that word to carry weight. You want it to be something.” - Ilhan Omar

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Re: Why creationists can laugh at atheist feminists?

Post by Jason » Wed Dec 09, 2015 9:16 pm

Forty Two wrote:
Śiva wrote:Cool story bro. But what's your beef with feminists having political agendas outside feminism - aka "Marxism"
Well, I have no beef with them "having" a political agenda outside feminism as such. I do have a problem with Marxism, as I described a few of my points against Marxism above.

Feminism is itself an ideology and an agenda. I expect them to have agendas. But, when they advance notions such as that capitalism is antithetical to feminism and other such tripe, it leads them to espouse some of the ludicrous economic and social positions they do these days.
So we can say you're of the "Marxism = Totalitarianism" crowd. Fine. But surely the closest actual feminism gets to actual Marxism is the modified "for each according to their ability". I think I'm beginning to see what you're on about. First attack the claim that there is inequality in the work force then assert that feminism is really disguised marxism - since they can't be about equal pay they must be about "to each according to his needs". Follow that up with the assertion to the contrary - that women are really only trying to scale the capitalist ladder (citing the obvious that they don't particularly want to break into mindless menial physical work, but into science-tech-engineering-medicine [duh]) - and you've got "confuse a kid" in a bag. Must work to troll kids very well. Doesn't fly with me though.

First, Feminism isn't Marxism. At best it adopts a modified "for each according to their ability"

Second, the wage gap does exist - estimates vary as to how much is caused by pure gender discrimination and studies have been commissioned to investigate it further.

Third, women are just as capable as men in the sciences, tech, engineering, and medical fields and it is only reasonable they should be at parity with men in these fields. They are not just as capable working in a mine. Even if they were, its hardly hypocrisy to want to move up the 'food chain'.

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Re: Why creationists can laugh at atheist feminists?

Post by Jason » Wed Dec 09, 2015 9:18 pm

Forty Two wrote:
Śiva wrote:
JimC wrote:
Śiva wrote:The wage gap is not debunked. It is real. At least here in Canada.
It is also possible to measure the gender wage gap on the basis of hourly wages. The most recent Statistics Canada data (2011) shows that the gender wage gap in Ontario is 26% for full–time, full–year workers. This means that for every $1.00 earned by a male worker, a female worker earns 74 cents.
However, this would be for a variety of reasons, mainly to do with what sort of jobs are on average done by either sex. In regulated industries with industrial awards, I'm sure you would see the same as in Oz, in that people doing the same work (e.g. teaching) get precisely the same wage.
It's true that there are many contributing factors to the wage gap, however it certainly does exist. According to the commission that quote is from 10-15% of the causes is down to pure gender discrimination. Further studies have been commissioned to find out exactly what the gap is in different employment sectors - so we don't have to rely on workforce-wide statistics.
No no. "Statisticians" estimated that as much as 10-15% MAY be caused by discrimination. In other words, they could see plainly from the numbers that 85% to 90% of the difference in earnings between men and women had nothing to do with discrimination, but they didn't have an answer from the stats for at most 10 or 15% of it. That doesn't mean the 10 or 15% is definitely discrimination. It means that's what the numbers leaves open as possible discrimination. It could still be because of non discriminatory factors which the stats did not consider.
Um no. They didn't identify 85% of the cause defining the remainder as discrimination by default. Where did you read that?

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Re: Why creationists can laugh at atheist feminists?

Post by DaveDodo007 » Thu Dec 10, 2015 12:16 am

Lol, feminism.

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Re: Why creationists can laugh at atheist feminists?

Post by pErvinalia » Thu Dec 10, 2015 1:42 am

DaveDodo007 wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:
DaveDodo007 wrote:
JimC wrote:Such an outstanding example of calm, rational analysis... :roll:
Erm..Show me were I claimed my ranting was rational analysis, Don't get me wrong when it comes to critical thinking I can blow you lefties out of the water but my rants are pure theatre and you should be honoured to be the target of them. :dance:
The point we keep trying to make to you is that you are hypocritical for accusing others of ad homs. YOU are the master of ad homs (behind myself, of course :p ). Your whole posting history is a sequence of non sequiturs. Successive posts have no relation to previous posts, whether separated by large amounts of time or short amounts of time. Most of us (including you) put it down to being utterly wasted while posting. Tell us, why should we take you seriously when you yourself describe yourself as a "retard" and a 'drunkard'??
No, it is you and most people posting here on this thread that don't get the point. The whole thread is about mocking feminism, that's it, end of. If you want to go to the politics part of the forum and create a "Why feminism is still relevant in the 21th century Western countries." Please feel free to do so. Why should I take anyone seriously who believes women are oppressed in the Western democracies, keep quoting the 'wage gap' myth long after it has been debunked a thousand times. Believe the 1 in 5 women are raped at university/colleges, people should just 'listen and believe' rape accusations and fuck due process. Not to mention Patriarchy, privilege, rape culture. Fucking manslaining, manspreading, ban bossy, free bleeding the stupidity just goes on and on. The fact that they are humourless puritans who want to ban anything that's fun is just the icing on the cake.

It is like arguing with creationists and climate change deniers what's the point. As for the 'I'm a retard' I find people who argue on the Internet are retards, even more so when they think they are a genius. I just own the label.

Edit: I forgot (as feminists come out with so much bullcrap) 'toxic masculinity' and 'toxic testosterone' how is that not male hating as it appears we males are born toxic. Jeez.
Sorry, I missed the part where you answered whether we should take you seriously or not. :think:
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Re: Why creationists can laugh at atheist feminists?

Post by pErvinalia » Thu Dec 10, 2015 1:48 am

JimC wrote:
Śiva wrote:The wage gap is not debunked. It is real. At least here in Canada.
It is also possible to measure the gender wage gap on the basis of hourly wages. The most recent Statistics Canada data (2011) shows that the gender wage gap in Ontario is 26% for full–time, full–year workers. This means that for every $1.00 earned by a male worker, a female worker earns 74 cents.
However, this would be for a variety of reasons, mainly to do with what sort of jobs are on average done by either sex. In regulated industries with industrial awards, I'm sure you would see the same as in Oz, in that people doing the same work (e.g. teaching) get precisely the same wage.
That's true. But when you look at CEO's and upper management positions where there isn't a more set wage, females simply are getting paid less for the same type of work. It's obviously coz they are stupider.
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"Socialized medicine is just exactly as morally defensible as gassing and cooking Jews" - Seth. Yes, he really did say that..
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"I am seriously thinking of going on a spree killing" - Svartalf.

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Re: Why creationists can laugh at atheist feminists?

Post by pErvinalia » Thu Dec 10, 2015 2:00 am

Forty Two wrote:
Śiva wrote:I'd like to know what your issue is with many feminists being anti-capitalist.. or "Marxist".
Well, the issue I have with anyone being Marxist, or anticaptialist in general. In the case of Marxists they are, and in the case of anticapitalists they tend to be, advancing a horrid ideology which tends toward authoritarianism, is decidedly illiberal, and is a recipe for disaster.

One, "from each according to ability to give and to each according to his need." A basic pillar of Marxism, and a recipe for oppression and slavery. It destroys the voluntariness - the volition - of the individual when the State or the community gets to direct what "each" has the "ability" to give. They aren't saying "from each according to his wants" or "from each according to his willingness to give or do" -- no no. It is intended to be and as applied is a directive that individuals do what the community or the state says they ought to do. And, "to each according to need" eliminates the volition of the individual in terms of pursuit of happiness. You don't get what you want, or what you can work to acquire. You get what you "need" and ONLY what you need. It doesn't say "a bare minimum safety net to protect the poor if they need assistance." No. it says "to each" according to their need. It's not "to each according to their need, and then everyone can pursue more than than their needs if they see fit to do so." Marx could have added that if he wanted to, but he didn't. Because it's not what's intended.

Two, Marxism leads to an authoritarian state. A socialist state by its very nature erodes the rights of its citizens. The American economist Milton Friedman argued that under socialism, the absence of a free market economy would inevitably lead to an authoritarian political regime. Friedman's view was also shared by Friedrich Hayek and John Maynard Keynes, who both believed that capitalism is a precondition for freedom to flourish in a nation state. Note, Keynes, of Keynesian economics fame, also agreed that capitalism is a precondition for freedom to flourish in a nation state. Capitalism is freedom. Similarly, Mikhail Bakunin showed that Marxist regimes would lead to the "despotic control of the populace by a new and not at all numerous aristocracy."

Three, Marxist economics is absurd, and its "labor theory" of value is simply wrong, and discounts the contribution of capital and other sources, and it discounts or ignores the role of demand in economics, relying almost entirely on supply. The absurdity of labor being the source of all value and the reality that the subjective individual evaluations 'creating' all value destroys Marx's economic conclusions and his social theories. Keynes - again of the Keynesian school of economics -- referred to Das Kapital as "an obsolete textbook which I know to be not only scientifically erroneous but without interest or application for the modern world" - so, the whole economic underpinning of Marxism is bollocks.

Four, the notion of Marxist feminism with women being an oppressed class, like the proletariat, is absurd, because women come in all economic classes, and the idea that women are, qua women, an oppressed, marginalized group is a fiction.
Being "anti-capitalist", or perhaps not fully supportive of capitalism isn't the same as being a "Marxist". This Marxist guff that you and Seth go on about is utterly bizarre. There's so few Marxists left these days. There's academic Marxists who study it like other social scientists study other random theories or aspects of historical society. There's definitely a few socialists around these days, but they aren't all Marxists. Socialism predates Marxism, and Marxism is a particular ideology/theory within socialism. I'd say there are a lot more right-libertarians in the US than there are Marxists in the rest of the western world. I don't even know if you can call Cuba and Venezuela Marxist. I'm not actually sure what ideology they exactly follow.
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Re: Why creationists can laugh at atheist feminists?

Post by DaveDodo007 » Thu Dec 10, 2015 2:27 am

rEvolutionist wrote:
DaveDodo007 wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:
DaveDodo007 wrote:
JimC wrote:Such an outstanding example of calm, rational analysis... :roll:
Erm..Show me were I claimed my ranting was rational analysis, Don't get me wrong when it comes to critical thinking I can blow you lefties out of the water but my rants are pure theatre and you should be honoured to be the target of them. :dance:
The point we keep trying to make to you is that you are hypocritical for accusing others of ad homs. YOU are the master of ad homs (behind myself, of course :p ). Your whole posting history is a sequence of non sequiturs. Successive posts have no relation to previous posts, whether separated by large amounts of time or short amounts of time. Most of us (including you) put it down to being utterly wasted while posting. Tell us, why should we take you seriously when you yourself describe yourself as a "retard" and a 'drunkard'??
No, it is you and most people posting here on this thread that don't get the point. The whole thread is about mocking feminism, that's it, end of. If you want to go to the politics part of the forum and create a "Why feminism is still relevant in the 21th century Western countries." Please feel free to do so. Why should I take anyone seriously who believes women are oppressed in the Western democracies, keep quoting the 'wage gap' myth long after it has been debunked a thousand times. Believe the 1 in 5 women are raped at university/colleges, people should just 'listen and believe' rape accusations and fuck due process. Not to mention Patriarchy, privilege, rape culture. Fucking manslaining, manspreading, ban bossy, free bleeding the stupidity just goes on and on. The fact that they are humourless puritans who want to ban anything that's fun is just the icing on the cake.

It is like arguing with creationists and climate change deniers what's the point. As for the 'I'm a retard' I find people who argue on the Internet are retards, even more so when they think they are a genius. I just own the label.

Edit: I forgot (as feminists come out with so much bullcrap) 'toxic masculinity' and 'toxic testosterone' how is that not male hating as it appears we males are born toxic. Jeez.
Sorry, I missed the part where you answered whether we should take you seriously or not. :think:
Frankly I don't care.
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Re: Why creationists can laugh at atheist feminists?

Post by pErvinalia » Thu Dec 10, 2015 2:31 am

I think you do, or you wouldn't get so whiney and wound up. You care heaps.
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Re: Why creationists can laugh at atheist feminists?

Post by DaveDodo007 » Thu Dec 10, 2015 2:34 am

rEvolutionist wrote:
JimC wrote:
Śiva wrote:The wage gap is not debunked. It is real. At least here in Canada.
It is also possible to measure the gender wage gap on the basis of hourly wages. The most recent Statistics Canada data (2011) shows that the gender wage gap in Ontario is 26% for full–time, full–year workers. This means that for every $1.00 earned by a male worker, a female worker earns 74 cents.
However, this would be for a variety of reasons, mainly to do with what sort of jobs are on average done by either sex. In regulated industries with industrial awards, I'm sure you would see the same as in Oz, in that people doing the same work (e.g. teaching) get precisely the same wage.
That's true. But when you look at CEO's and upper management positions where there isn't a more set wage, females simply are getting paid less for the same type of work. It's obviously coz they are stupider.
If you are shit at negotiating your worth to the company that is not societies fault. Pray tell why I should give a shit how much some sociopath CEO earns as they don't give a fuck about me (or anybody else for that matter) but themselves.
Last edited by DaveDodo007 on Thu Dec 10, 2015 2:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why creationists can laugh at atheist feminists?

Post by DaveDodo007 » Thu Dec 10, 2015 2:36 am

rEvolutionist wrote:I think you do, or you wouldn't get so whiney and wound up. You care heaps.
I also leave for weeks, months at a time I simply come and go as I please.
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Re: Why creationists can laugh at atheist feminists?

Post by pErvinalia » Thu Dec 10, 2015 2:44 am

DaveDodo007 wrote:
rEvolutionist wrote:
JimC wrote:
Śiva wrote:The wage gap is not debunked. It is real. At least here in Canada.
It is also possible to measure the gender wage gap on the basis of hourly wages. The most recent Statistics Canada data (2011) shows that the gender wage gap in Ontario is 26% for full–time, full–year workers. This means that for every $1.00 earned by a male worker, a female worker earns 74 cents.
However, this would be for a variety of reasons, mainly to do with what sort of jobs are on average done by either sex. In regulated industries with industrial awards, I'm sure you would see the same as in Oz, in that people doing the same work (e.g. teaching) get precisely the same wage.
That's true. But when you look at CEO's and upper management positions where there isn't a more set wage, females simply are getting paid less for the same type of work. It's obviously coz they are stupider.
If you are shit a negotiating your worth to the company that is not societies fault. Pray tell why I should give a shit how much some sociopath CEO earns as they don't give a fuck about me (or anybody else for that matter) but themselves.
Red herring. The point is that there are clear cases of female pay disparity in private companies without set wages. You claim it is "shit negotiating". Occam's razor says it's much more likely that women are still discriminated against in some areas as they have traditionally been discriminated against for most of our social history.
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