Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

Post by Coito ergo sum » Mon Oct 25, 2010 2:57 pm

Gawdzilla wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:The civil suit is a big tip-off. If he was embezzling, they could get the FBI or the local police to take on the case and set him up. In these kinds of cases, the criminal prosecution usually results in a plea bargain or a conviction involving restitution of amounts stolen.
You know very well that both types of cases are filed routinely.
Of course. Nothing I said suggests otherwise.

The fact remains that suing Timonen civilly most certainly tips Timonen off about the embezzlement. I wonder why they didn't let him keep going unmolested, and have the authorities monitor it and then bust him with a slam dunk case.

The idea would be, if I wasn't clear enough, that if the authorities get a conviction involving restitution, then the cost and expense of a civil suit would be unnecessary, or at least a good chunk of the work would be done for Dawkins. You can certainly file a civil suit anytime, irrespective of criminal prosecutions, but if one gets a $400,000 in restitution from the criminal conviction, the civil court will not allow a "double dip" and will offset any damages recovered in the civil suit by the amount recovered by restitution.

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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

Post by Bella Fortuna » Mon Oct 25, 2010 3:01 pm

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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

Post by Svartalf » Mon Oct 25, 2010 3:04 pm

Maybe it has to do with the fact that they discovered the misdeeds AFTER they took control of things back from timonen, so no longer had the option of letting him go on and giving him enough rope to hang himself with?
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

Post by Hermit » Mon Oct 25, 2010 3:09 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:I wonder why there isn't a criminal prosecution here...

At nearly $1,000,000, this might have garnered the attention of the FBI, not to mention California authorities....
Firstly, in a criminal case an offense has to be proven beyond reasonable doubt. Finding Timonen and/or co-defendants guilty in a civil court only requires such a judgment on the basis of probability. Secondly, the prospects of recovering anywhere near the full amount of allegedly embezzled money, not to mention additional punitive ones, are enhanced by taking the latter route.
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

Post by Coito ergo sum » Mon Oct 25, 2010 3:12 pm

maiforpeace wrote:PZ made a point of posting at RS that the document was the work of the the attorney and not RD's words. I think that's interesting - perhaps RD may have expressed some misgivings about what's going on with his case to PZ? Like LP, I don't think RD would have done this unless he absolutely had to. If it had just been him who JT had embezzled funds from he would have let it go I think. He's doing it because he too has a fiduciary duty to the foundation.
You are correct that Dawkins owes a fiduciary duty to the Foundation. He has to go after this money.

I doubt, however, that Dawkins would just let it go if someone stole $375,000 from him personally. That's a nice chunk of change, and not something you just give away to thieves.

The document was most likely prepared by an attorney, but with consultation and prior approval of Dawkins (or whoever Dawkins has appointed other than himself to handle the matter, if anybody). That kind of a note has not only legal concerns, but also PR concerns involved, so it would be very unlikely, IMHO, that it went out without the Foundation reviewing it.
maiforpeace wrote: Once you go to an attorney, especially those sharky types that handle this sort of case, it's kind of out of your hands.
This kind of case is not one that you'd go to a "sharky type" lawyer. This is something you'd go to an intellectual property litigation firm, that handles complex matters.

It's also NEVER out of the client's hands. The Foundation attorney is paid hourly, and all major actions in the case are reviewed with the client prior to them being taken. The Complaint, for example, had to be reviewed and signed off on by Dawkins because he has to represent to the attorneys that everything they are saying to the court is true.
maiforpeace wrote:
RD doesn't have the option of looking over the document, objecting to some of the wording and adding his edits.
It would be surprising if RD did not have that opportunity, actually.
maiforpeace wrote:
Either you go along with what the attorney tells you to do, or you fire him and get a new one which costs even more money. RD has already sunk a little fortune into the guy he has now.
The attorney will, however, seek input from the client, particularly on a statement like this. The statement needs to be accurate, and the facts come from the client. It could be malpractice for the attorney not to run this kind of a release by the client beforehand because (a) there is plenty of time to do so, and (b) if the attorney makes a misstatement that the client would have corrected it could conceivably damage the case.
maiforpeace wrote:
RD may win his case, but he will still lose. This type of lawsuit will take a real toll on his emotional health, especially since he did have a personal relationship with Josh. I feel badly for him having to deal with this, especially at his age - he's no spring chicken.
It's also unlikely that Josh will ever pay a judgment obtained by Dawkins. If he gets hit with a $1,000,000 judgment, he'll file Chapter 7 bankruptcy.

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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

Post by leo-rcc » Mon Oct 25, 2010 3:17 pm

I hope it is true, because if it isn't it would mean a webstore with the size and demographics of RDF behind it only made 30,000 USD in 3 years, which is very measly indeed.
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

Post by Coito ergo sum » Mon Oct 25, 2010 3:21 pm

Seraph wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:I wonder why there isn't a criminal prosecution here...

At nearly $1,000,000, this might have garnered the attention of the FBI, not to mention California authorities....
Firstly, in a criminal case an offense has to be proven beyond reasonable doubt. Finding Timonen and/or co-defendants guilty in a civil court only requires such a judgment on the basis of probability. Secondly, the prospects of recovering anywhere near the full amount of allegedly embezzled money, not to mention additional punitive ones, are enhanced by taking the latter route.
Regarding your first point, yes, I know that Forrest. But, a criminal prosecution is at no cost to RDF. A civil suit costs RDF probably $300 an hour for an attorney, plus out of pocket costs, fees, etc.

Regarding your second point, if they get a conviction in the criminal court, they can use that conviction in the civil court. In the US, generally speaking, when a defendant in criminal proceeding is convicted of a crime that includes restitution (as embezzlement penalties do), then the defendant is actually prohibited from denying the civil claim for the same thing. So, if there was a criminal conviction for embezzlement, then a civil suit for the same embezzlement would result in an easy civil judgment. The fact that there was restitution ordered in the criminal prosecution would help RDF, not hurt it.

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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

Post by Coito ergo sum » Mon Oct 25, 2010 3:22 pm

Svartalf wrote:Maybe it has to do with the fact that they discovered the misdeeds AFTER they took control of things back from timonen, so no longer had the option of letting him go on and giving him enough rope to hang himself with?
Quite possibly.

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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

Post by maiforpeace » Mon Oct 25, 2010 3:37 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:
Seraph wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:I wonder why there isn't a criminal prosecution here...

At nearly $1,000,000, this might have garnered the attention of the FBI, not to mention California authorities....
Firstly, in a criminal case an offense has to be proven beyond reasonable doubt. Finding Timonen and/or co-defendants guilty in a civil court only requires such a judgment on the basis of probability. Secondly, the prospects of recovering anywhere near the full amount of allegedly embezzled money, not to mention additional punitive ones, are enhanced by taking the latter route.
Regarding your first point, yes, I know that Forrest. But, a criminal prosecution is at no cost to RDF. A civil suit costs RDF probably $300 an hour for an attorney, plus out of pocket costs, fees, etc.

Regarding your second point, if they get a conviction in the criminal court, they can use that conviction in the civil court. In the US, generally speaking, when a defendant in criminal proceeding is convicted of a crime that includes restitution (as embezzlement penalties do), then the defendant is actually prohibited from denying the civil claim for the same thing. So, if there was a criminal conviction for embezzlement, then a civil suit for the same embezzlement would result in an easy civil judgment. The fact that there was restitution ordered in the criminal prosecution would help RDF, not hurt it.
He didn't have enough evidence, otherwise the county would have taken up the case.

Not to mention it's California, and L.A. where this is happening. The amount of money in question is small peanuts compared to some of the stuff they must have going on - the system just doesn't have the resources to take on every single case.

RD hired some high profile entertainment business attorney - I would venture to guess his fee is more like $450 - $600 an hour.
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Oct 25, 2010 3:42 pm

maiforpeace wrote:He didn't have enough evidence, otherwise the county would have taken up the case.
Then we know for a fact that the State isn't preparing a case right now?
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

Post by maiforpeace » Mon Oct 25, 2010 3:57 pm

Gawdzilla wrote:
maiforpeace wrote:He didn't have enough evidence, otherwise the county would have taken up the case.
Then we know for a fact that the State isn't preparing a case right now?
RD would have been advised to wait to file a civil suit if they were going to file a criminal case.
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Oct 25, 2010 4:02 pm

maiforpeace wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote:
maiforpeace wrote:He didn't have enough evidence, otherwise the county would have taken up the case.
Then we know for a fact that the State isn't preparing a case right now?
RD would have been advised to wait to file a civil suit if they were going to file a criminal case.
How so? I see them filed simultaneously all the time.
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

Post by maiforpeace » Mon Oct 25, 2010 4:09 pm

Gawdzilla wrote:
maiforpeace wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote:
maiforpeace wrote:He didn't have enough evidence, otherwise the county would have taken up the case.
Then we know for a fact that the State isn't preparing a case right now?
RD would have been advised to wait to file a civil suit if they were going to file a criminal case.
How so? I see them filed simultaneously all the time.
The petition was filed September 27. I'm going with the same gut feeling that CES has.
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

Post by Gawdzilla Sama » Mon Oct 25, 2010 4:11 pm

maiforpeace wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote:
maiforpeace wrote:
Gawdzilla wrote:
maiforpeace wrote:He didn't have enough evidence, otherwise the county would have taken up the case.
Then we know for a fact that the State isn't preparing a case right now?
RD would have been advised to wait to file a civil suit if they were going to file a criminal case.
How so? I see them filed simultaneously all the time.
The petition was filed September 27. I'm going with the same gut feeling that CES has.
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Re: Dawkins sues Josh Timonen

Post by Coito ergo sum » Mon Oct 25, 2010 4:17 pm

maiforpeace wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:
Seraph wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:I wonder why there isn't a criminal prosecution here...

At nearly $1,000,000, this might have garnered the attention of the FBI, not to mention California authorities....
Firstly, in a criminal case an offense has to be proven beyond reasonable doubt. Finding Timonen and/or co-defendants guilty in a civil court only requires such a judgment on the basis of probability. Secondly, the prospects of recovering anywhere near the full amount of allegedly embezzled money, not to mention additional punitive ones, are enhanced by taking the latter route.
Regarding your first point, yes, I know that Forrest. But, a criminal prosecution is at no cost to RDF. A civil suit costs RDF probably $300 an hour for an attorney, plus out of pocket costs, fees, etc.

Regarding your second point, if they get a conviction in the criminal court, they can use that conviction in the civil court. In the US, generally speaking, when a defendant in criminal proceeding is convicted of a crime that includes restitution (as embezzlement penalties do), then the defendant is actually prohibited from denying the civil claim for the same thing. So, if there was a criminal conviction for embezzlement, then a civil suit for the same embezzlement would result in an easy civil judgment. The fact that there was restitution ordered in the criminal prosecution would help RDF, not hurt it.
He didn't have enough evidence, otherwise the county would have taken up the case.
That's my gut feeling too. The likelihood is the FBI or local law enforcement saw an argument over who owned what and said "you're going to have to work that one out..." - cops shy away from things that they see as "business disputes."
maiforpeace wrote:
Not to mention it's California, and L.A. where this is happening. The amount of money in question is small peanuts compared to some of the stuff they must have going on - the system just doesn't have the resources to take on every single case.
I think it's enough - at $375,000, for the LA County prosecutor to be interested. The bigger problem is jurisdictional, actually. Since it's a foundation operating pretty much exclusively on the internet, the local cops will want to push RDF on the FBI....the FBI, though, would be more apt to yawn a bit based on the amount in controversy not meeting their threshhold. I think $375,000 would be enough to have them take the case, but it wouldn't be at the top of the list and they'd be urging RDF to go to the local cops. So, you tend to get into these "nobody's really that interested" zones....
maiforpeace wrote:
RD hired some high profile entertainment business attorney - I would venture to guess his fee is more like $450 - $600 an hour.
Given CA costs, I would not be surprised.

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