Another Skepchick War! Dr. Marty Klein crossed the line!

[Coito ergo sum]

I have a question. Have any of the Skepchick contingent ever spoken out against any of the institutionalized misogyny in the Rethuglican party here in the US?

What institutionalized misogyny are you referring to?

Nothing but the constant barrage of anti-abortion bills, attempts to limit access to contraception, blocking equal-pay-for-equal-work, things like that. I'd provide references, but I have to leave for work in about 15 minutes.

Huh 1/2 the women in America are misogynists now because they are pro-Life? And, opposing things like the Lily Ledbetter law is now "misogyny" and not a difference of opinion on the advisability of such legislation? And, opposing funding of contraceptives is now misogyny too?

Spoken like a true Skepchick...

How about the Obama Administration actually paying women significantly less than men? Anyone speaking out against that?

[Robert_S]

I have a question. Have any of the Skepchick contingent ever spoken out against any of the institutionalized misogyny in the Rethuglican party here in the US?

What institutionalized misogyny are you referring to?

Nothing but the constant barrage of anti-abortion bills, attempts to limit access to contraception, blocking equal-pay-for-equal-work, things like that. I'd provide references, but I have to leave for work in about 15 minutes.

Not to mention their unholy alliance with the most reactionary of the religious right.... It isn't the Westboro Baptists' hatred of teh gheys that caused the Republicans to dislike them, it is the methods they use.

[Coito ergo sum]

I have a question. Have any of the Skepchick contingent ever spoken out against any of the institutionalized misogyny in the Rethuglican party here in the US?

What institutionalized misogyny are you referring to?

Nothing but the constant barrage of anti-abortion bills, attempts to limit access to contraception, blocking equal-pay-for-equal-work, things like that. I'd provide references, but I have to leave for work in about 15 minutes.

Not to mention their unholy alliance with the most reactionary of the religious right.... It isn't the Westboro Baptists' hatred of teh gheys that caused the Republicans to dislike them, it is the methods they use.

It's a tad dopey to equate "I think only men and women should be legally allowed to marry (which has been the case for thousands of years...)" and "God hates all the fags and wants them to die, die die!!!" But, that's one of the strategies -- create a term like "homophobia" and then include everything from real hostility and violence to differences of political/cultural opinion and paint it all with a broad brush.

[rachelbean]

Spoken like a true Skepchick...

Coito, this lame, and it wasn't needed in order to answer Aayan properly. It was spoken like someone who may disagree with you on what constitutes misogyny, there's no need for the hyperbole. If your goal is to cut off discussion that's a good tactic though.

[Coito ergo sum]

Spoken like a true Skepchick...

Coito, this lame, and it wasn't needed in order to answer Aayan properly. It was spoken like someone who may disagree with you on what constitutes misogyny, there's no need for the hyperbole. If your goal is to cut off discussion that's a good tactic though.

Well, of course, you're right Rachel...

I will apologize to Ayaan. Ayaan, I am sorry for saying that. I reacted to the phrasing of your post, but on reflection reacting by directing that comment at you was not justified.

[Audley Strange]

CES. Good show.

Having spent way too much time over on FTB ans Skepchick the last week it became apparent to me that their exaggerations cause exaggerated reactions. But they are as trivial as their whining. Look at code pink's website then look at Skepchicks. You don't have to agree with their politics, but look at difference. One groups talks about the issues that affect the planet, the other group starts practically every fucking sentence with "I".

[rachelbean]

Spoken like a true Skepchick...

Coito, this lame, and it wasn't needed in order to answer Aayan properly. It was spoken like someone who may disagree with you on what constitutes misogyny, there's no need for the hyperbole. If your goal is to cut off discussion that's a good tactic though.

Well, of course, you're right Rachel...

I will apologize to Ayaan. Ayaan, I am sorry for saying that. I reacted to the phrasing of your post, but on reflection reacting by directing that comment at you was not justified.

I do react a bit when people use the word misogyny where I think sexism is probably best applied if anything, but that seems to be common nowadays unfortunately. I think using the label stifles having a reasonable debate in a lot of cases. In any case what I've witnessed of Aayan is that she is open minded and supports people's right to express themselves even if she doesn't agree, so I also reacted a bit to that label as well

[SteveB]

Marty Klein?

Marty McFly + Calvin Klein...this is not coincidence people.

[Robert_S]

Spoken like a true Skepchick...

Coito, this lame, and it wasn't needed in order to answer Aayan properly. It was spoken like someone who may disagree with you on what constitutes misogyny, there's no need for the hyperbole. If your goal is to cut off discussion that's a good tactic though.

Well, of course, you're right Rachel...

I will apologize to Ayaan. Ayaan, I am sorry for saying that. I reacted to the phrasing of your post, but on reflection reacting by directing that comment at you was not justified.

You gotta admit, the GOP should be a target rich environment and yet they don't have a lot on them in their first few pages.

Maybe the word "misogyny" is overused. I think so actually. If it comes to mean everything from an inappropriate and creepy behavior to outright unapologetic not-a-joke-at-all rape, then why have a separate word from sexism? Quite frankly I think that some factions of the feminist movement shoot themselves in the foot overusing terms like this. They (some factions) shoot themselves in the foot in a lot of their presentation.

Here's a woman that gets the point across wonderfully IMO:

[tattuchu]

One does wonder how a young blade about town is to proposition a filly these days. Was easy in my day, you just spoke to her father, but now it all seems a terribly fraught walking on egg shells game.

Hmm, I suppose that's a practical enough approach. Ask the father first, and then if he's not interested in having sex, then ask the daughter. Personally I think I'd prefer to ask the daughter first, and then only fall back on the father if that didn't work out. But I suppose I shouldn't discount the idea of sex with the father out of hand. He may very well be a dashing fellow with a handsome mustache.

[Audley Strange]

[
Maybe the word "misogyny" is overused. I think so actually. If it comes to mean everything from an inappropriate and creepy behavior to outright unapologetic not-a-joke-at-all rape, then why have a separate word from sexism? Quite frankly I think that some factions of the feminist movement shoot themselves in the foot overusing terms like this. They (some factions) shoot themselves in the foot in a lot of their presentation.

Yeah. I've been thinking that the difference might be that there is a difference between women's rights activists and women's issues activists. Now I have no issue with supporting women's rights because I see no reason to oppose the legal consideration of equality, to not is oppressive. It really is a black and white thing.

However women's issues are not the same thing. They are women's issues. I have no problem with women creating groups to confront those issues, to challenge cultural norms, however I resent that my disinterest or negative opinion on any of those, often minor, issues that effect practically no-one are part and parcel of a conspiracy that means I don't want women to have rights, I hate them and I want them raped to shut them up. It's like being called a Slave-owner because you didn't like Obama's health care plan.

It's a nonsense as is some of the great new orthodox newspeak going about that conflates the two as being the same. It that same doublethink that says misogyny should not be considered by the common and specific definition of hatred of women, but be a broad spectrum term to include anything that invokes negative emotional states in any woman. Also the Patriarchy is not a term that means an inherent culturally derived control system made by men for the benefit of men which oppresses women. No, apparently the patriarchy is an inherently culturally derived control system by not necessarily men that oppresses everyone (but yeah men). Which would make it entirely unreasonable then to specifically define it with such a loaded term. Oh and minority doesn't mean minority either, it means anyone that is being oppressed by this patriarchy. Privilege doesn't mean privilege either, it means a lack of sympathy for someone who feels oppressed (doesn't seem to matter if they actually are or not.)

I'm not buying it. These terms reek of the agenda that created them and were used in the sense that is commonly understood by them and now when that's pointed out, suddenly we are supposed to accept it's "no no it's no just a vindictive part of the women's movement, those loaded terms we used to be loaded terms aren't the loaded terms you think they are, they are technical sociological definitions".

It's hogwash. It's a P.R. attempt to establish a radical opinion as a reasonable and rational narrative. That some sociologists might accept such value loaded terms being so flexibly used as "technical definitions" doesn't surprise me, it's always been a discipline that has been heavily influenced by one political agenda or another, but that they are commonly used in either sociological literature as such or commonly considered by the public as such is false. The terminologies are common and used primarily in context by all but a few.

[Robert_S]

"Patriarchy" gets on my nerves to. I have seen it explained that what the major problem (these days in most of the west) is unexamined assumptions and cultural baggage from days gone past can honestly be labeled "patriarchal". That's valid as far as I can see from my armchair. Using it as a noun and talking about it as if it had agency is like giving away free straw.

[Audley Strange]

I looked over that too. The documentary evidence and presumption of such is at best akin to that of the Illuminati. As is the conviction that it's "responsible for everything bad."

Unless one takes the evolutionary and biological aspects into account i.e. an extension of primal alpha male chimp hierarchy rather than a long term cultural invention it's tenuous. However some fringe of sociologists and Feminists balk at that and use the Bonobo to falsify that line of thinking. However you cannot even attempt to falsify the concept of Patriarchy because apart from very little actual evidence for it outside of medieval Clerical thinking and perceptual assumption surprisingly there no existing successful matriarchies to compare against.

One could infer from that a number of things.

[rachelbean]

Maybe the word "misogyny" is overused. I think so actually. If it comes to mean everything from an inappropriate and creepy behavior to outright unapologetic not-a-joke-at-all rape, then why have a separate word from sexism? Quite frankly I think that some factions of the feminist movement shoot themselves in the foot overusing terms like this. They (some factions) shoot themselves in the foot in a lot of their presentation.

That's what I said (though not as well)

I do react a bit when people use the word misogyny where I think sexism is probably best applied if anything, but that seems to be common nowadays unfortunately. I think using the label stifles having a reasonable debate in a lot of cases.

[Robert_S]

Maybe the word "misogyny" is overused. I think so actually. If it comes to mean everything from an inappropriate and creepy behavior to outright unapologetic not-a-joke-at-all rape, then why have a separate word from sexism? Quite frankly I think that some factions of the feminist movement shoot themselves in the foot overusing terms like this. They (some factions) shoot themselves in the foot in a lot of their presentation.

That's what I said (though not as well)

I do react a bit when people use the word misogyny where I think sexism is probably best applied if anything, but that seems to be common nowadays unfortunately. I think using the label stifles having a reasonable debate in a lot of cases.

I didn't see that, but very well put and the point about stifling reasonable discussion was missing from my post.

I'm thinking about how do you get a person to consider that their attitudes might need revising. If all they're thinking about is how to defend themselves from the charge of misogyny, they're going to become entrenched in their views and miss out on any subtle points the speaker is trying to get across.