Rationalskepticism,lol part III.

[Seth]

I just act in my best self interest it doesn't bother me if I'm called a selfish cunt or not but it obviously bothers others

I've come to the conclusion the best way you win a political argument is to be everything your opponent despises and thinks you are. If someone calls a politician an evil murder then that politician should say yes I'm an evil murder, I'm a fucking good one and this country needs an evil murderer. When they get elected on that basis where does your opponent have to go?

Who ARE you and what have you done with MrJonno!

[Brian Peacock]

I don't claim that the vast majority of people are Fascists, I clam that capitalism is Fascism, which is the absolute truth enunciated by Bergson himself. As for the "vast majority of people," only those who are, or approve of capitalism have nexus to Bergson et al, but they aren't actually Fascists, a category limited to those who are smart enough to places themselves in the elite leadership status of Mosca's Ruling Class, instead that vast, seething majority of disorganised swine are the useful idiots Mosca referred to who spend their lives mindlessly fighting each other for the meagre slops and spillages from the trough of capitalism, too innately stupid to understand that they are being starved and slaughtered to secure the ivory towers of their Lords and Masters.

[laklak]

Well, it's good to be the King, after all.

[MrJonno]

Democracy has pretty much died in the UK, you have a moderately right wing political party (the Conservatives) but the Labour party has been taken over by real Trots and terrorist sympathisers (genuine ones not Seth ones). These people are currently the real enemy and all energies need to devoted to defeating them.

The other sad conclusion I've come to is while I'm pro-immigration, pro gay rights, pro freedom of speech pro-internationalism, anti racism most the poor underclass are not. One day they will vote for a left wing party the next they will vote for an openly fascist one (UKIP in the UK). I've come to the conclusion these people aren't poor because they are oppressed they are poor because they are uneducated scum. I don't want to be associated to such people. I'm happy to support unlimited tax funded education (still a leftie) but the obligation is on the poor to take advantage of it and to cease to be poor instead of being vermin blaming everyone else for their problems

[laklak]

Oceania is at war with Eastasia. Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia. The lumpen are necessary, as is their xenophobia and hatred.

[JimC]

As usual, this is becoming a polarising argument, with both rEv and MrJonno being forced to the extreme ends of their own arguments.

There is some truth, albeit a depressing one, in Jonno's pessimistic view of the innately selfish motivation of most people, in at least many circumstances. Not all of this derives from manipulation by vested interests in society, but certainly those vested interests make use of it, and reinforce it at every opportunity, which tends to be one of rEv's central points. The more such manipulation is exposed and discussed, the better - it always works best when people are distracted by bread and circuses...

And it is not impossible to make at least some moves towards a more progressive society, with some clever policies, and a little luck, but it will still be, as always, an imperfect compromise.

[MrJonno]

A progressive society for whom?, the poor they are the one who hate the progressive society the most. It's not the middle classes that are bothered about foreigners or gay people they are just customers or employees, its the poor who are the real bigots

[DaveDodo007]

The UK isnt a centre right country as such its a middle class/rich old and greying , inward looking, racist, property owning country and basically if you are young, a renter or poor you are completely fucked. But that's democracy for you. If I was young I would emigrate but as I'm not young I'm going to support policies which screw the young and pay to keep me in reasonable comfort. It me or them and I choose me

What people don't understand is democracy is rule by the majority, with rule (ie master) and the majority (the master) living it up over the minority (slaves) being the important concepts. Corbyn represents the slaves and no one gives a shit what slaves have to say on anything

How the fuck is England (can't speak for the rest of the UK) racist, it is the most tolerant country I have ever lived in. Try being a Turk in Greece, Hungary, Italy, Spain and Latvia. It's adherence to PC is absolute to the extent that the local white populations have to vote UKip to have their own voices heard. The young are just the young and just want to get a shag so their priorities will change when they get older. The UK do democracy right in that just because you are the (voting) majority doesn't mean you get to shit on the minority (present tory austerity measures aside, which go too far even for a conservative like me.)

[DaveDodo007]

But in the case of Corbyn, Sanders et al, these people are overtly anti-elite. So supporters of them can hardly be elite, let alone a tool of the elite. The reasonable question is: does the political system we have inevitably lead to corruption and elitism? I kind of suspect that it does, and the events in Greece and Syriza selling out bear truth to that.

I wouldn't call them anti-elitist, they just want to usurp the elite position. Commissars and apparatchiks, that's the ticket. All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others. Such is the human condition. The biggest Bernie supporters I run into here are university students, and anyone who has ever been a university student knows full well they can't find their own ass with both hands and a GPS. Plus they're utterly doomed to failure. No society has ever been even remotely "fair", not on the playground nor in the hallowed Halls of Power. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss. The trick is to figure out who the next boss is and position yourself as a little remora to their Great White, protected by their bulk and feeding off their scraps. Well, either that or go live on a trawler.

Well said, I don't understand people who don't get this. Every person who wants to govern you is a sociopath and they have just picked your demographic as useful to get them elected. The best you can do is vote for the politicians whose views at least alight mostly with yours. As it got them power and so they will stick with it whilst it is useful to them.

Edit: People like rEv and the like who think there are really politicians who care about them are so naive it is untrue. They just want our vote end of.

[DaveDodo007]

Top 1% of the world, income over $32,400 ~ £21k

http://www.investopedia.com/articles/pe ... -world.asp

I don't for one minute think that luck doesn't play a large part in me being part of that 1% but I sure intend to do everything to stay that way.

It's great living in a 1st world capitalist country and I do feel sorry for people who don't but not sorry enough to compromise my elite status, because that would be stupid

As I said to Svarty, it's fairly irrelevant what your position is in relation to other societies. It your position within your own socio-political system. You simply are not an elite, Jonno. You wield almost no political power. Strange that you are so desperate to call yourself an elite now, given how derisive of them you were earlier. Well, it would be strange, if your arguments had any overall coherence to them.

I wield a stupid amount of money compared to someone living in Africa, that's power sure other people have more but Rupert Murdoch quality of life may be ahead of mine but not as far ahead as I am of an African peasant. As for being derisive or not the reality is I have no interest in claiming a moral high ground, that's what people with too much time on their hands do.

I am privileged , I do very well out of an 'unfair', unequal world and I'm fully happy to support any method required to keep me in that situation because in the end I'm not stupid. Of course just about everyone else in the 1st world feel exactly the same but they tend to hide their dishonesty (to themselves) with bollocks morality

FFS I'm beginning to agree with rEv that you are a fucking idiot but for totally different reasons. Fuck off with your the system is unfair. Capitalism is awesome and leads to a meritocracy but you still need a welfare state. Do you really think poor people are going to sit at home whilst they and if they have children starve to death. Napoleon said the population is three square meals away from rioting well fuck you Napoleon as we have fridge freezers now so it will take at least a week. I'm a pragmatist follow capitalism but throw in a little socialism to keep the proles happy.

[DaveDodo007]

A progressive society for whom?, the poor they are the one who hate the progressive society the most. It's not the middle classes that are bothered about foreigners or gay people they are just customers or employees, its the poor who are the real bigots

Totally unfair assessment, the working class are the least educated to deal with mass immigration yet bare the blunt of its effects. As in they (by over demand) drive down wages and over burden the housing and welfare state in their area which they live. They are totally right to give the finger to the progressive (regressive left) though I would like to see you justify the claim that they are homophobic?

[pErvinalia]

This is as idiotic as Seth's claim that the vast majority of people are secret Marxists.

And once again, you don't address what I wrote. You do have way more money than the average African, but that doesn't afford you any power as you don't interact with them directly. You do however interact directly in your own socio-political system, a system in which you have very little power at all. You are slave to the elites in your society. Exactly how you like it, of course.

Seth hides behind psuedo moralistic bullshit while being a selfish cunt (sorry Seth not meant to be an insult in this case) , I'm just a selfish cunt like everyone else

Non-sequitur. Again.

[pErvinalia]

@Lak... But this view of humans as inherently selfish and destructive goes against the tenants of Liberalism which you are supposed to espouse as a libbo, I would have thought.

I see Libertarianism as a sort of religion. It's about ought, not is.

I will admit to a certain jaded outlook, inevitable after 6 decades, IMO.

Libertarianism tries to come up with a moral framework to justify people being unpleasant, I just accept people are unpleasant and do myself to prosper in such an environment

But this is just as deluded as it is a misunderstanding of how humans think, learn and behave. Believing people are "selfish" is such a simplistic understanding of psychology and evolution as to be virtually useless. And well, yes, we've seen how useless it is holding such a belief: your atrocious reasoning skills.

[pErvinalia]

That said, I agree with you rEv, being "elite" is very, very subjective. Those who actually are elite know it and don't mention it. Those who aren't at all elite label those who are better off than themselves as "elite" as a part of the practice of class warfare that Marx touted as the way to get the proletarian masses stirred up enough to kill the bourgeoisie merchant class, who themselves suffered under the thumb of the privileged aristocracy by rule of law.

The elite are waging class war on the vast majority of the population. Only cowards back down in the face of an existential threat like that. I love this idiotic rhetoric pumped out by conservatives that mentioning the unravelling of the stability of society (i.e. pointing out massive wealth inequality and corporate/wealth hijacking of our "democracies"), that it's somehow a war by a small group of aware progressives against the power of the elite. Talk about David and Goliath.

[DaveDodo007]

I don't claim that the vast majority of people are Fascists, I clam that capitalism is Fascism, which is the absolute truth enunciated by Bergson himself. As for the "vast majority of people," only those who are, or approve of capitalism have nexus to Bergson et al, but they aren't actually Fascists, a category limited to those who are smart enough to places themselves in the elite leadership status of Mosca's Ruling Class, instead that vast, seething majority of disorganised swine are the useful idiots Mosca referred to who spend their lives mindlessly fighting each other for the meagre slops and spillages from the trough of capitalism, too innately stupid to understand that they are being starved and slaughtered to secure the ivory towers of their Lords and Masters.

OK when I get time I'm really going to tear this comment a new one but I need to hear more on how capitalism is fascism as even at its most basic level it just wants your money?