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Re: joshtimonen talks

Post by Svartalf » Thu Oct 28, 2010 4:40 pm

The disagreement is that josh was paid a salary to handle RDFRS matters computerly, including running the store from his company since apparently the foundation could not do so itself, and he pocketed more than 90% of the profits from said store, reporting that the store was barely floating by, untile the foundation got ready to operate the store directly and got the books from him, and he had not even taken any care to disguise his embezzling as anything, just dipped into the cookie jar, sso doubling the salary he was supposed to get.
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Re: joshtimonen talks

Post by Warren Dew » Thu Oct 28, 2010 4:46 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:And, the operation of the Store entailed more than just software engineering. He wasn't just handling the software project. According to the complaint, he was running the Store (and even an online store requires more than just the software element).
I'm not saying it's unreasonable, necessarily - for all I know he was working 80 hours a week doing the equivalent of two full time jobs - I'm just trying to get the facts straight.

Also, while I can see how RDF might have thought the direct payments to him would cover his work on the store, it's hard to see how they could view that as meaning other people working on the store should also work for free.

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Re: joshtimonen talks

Post by maiforpeace » Thu Oct 28, 2010 4:47 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:
Warren Dew wrote:
Anthroban wrote:Also, last time I checked, software engineers averaged about £35,000/year in the UK
Competent web software engineers are quite a bit more in the U.S., especially for contractors who have to cover additional taxes and other costs such as health insurance. Josh was operating from California, was he not?
And, the operation of the Store entailed more than just software engineering. He wasn't just handling the software project. According to the complaint, he was running the Store (and even an online store requires more than just the software element).
My husband is a software engineer here in CA. I asked him and he indicated for someone with Josh's experience as an independent contractor, (I'm guessing no more than 7-9 years) $70K (~£44K) would be par for the course.
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Re: joshtimonen talks

Post by Coito ergo sum » Thu Oct 28, 2010 4:57 pm

Warren Dew wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:Negative. It says that Josh taking a salary from the store's profits was embezzlement and breach of contract.
So, if I understand correctly, Josh was getting paid about $80k a year directly from RD/RDF for maintaining their site, and Josh and others were also drawing about $80k a year additional from Josh's company for working on the store? Is that the crux of the disagreement?
As I read it, Timonen was getting paid $X from Dawkins himself for services rendered to Dawkins personally, and $Y from RDF for services rendered to RDF the foundation, and that totaled something on the order of $80,000 a year (but, Dawkins is demanding $15,000 back that he claims was paid in advance by him personally for 2010, but the deal was cut short in May, so he wants 7/12ths of the money back).

Lest I be accused of being a "bullshiter" who "doesn't know what he's talking about," I will quote the Complaint:

Starting "in or around 2006," Richard Dawkins, personally, paid him the following sums for his personal services: $20,000 in November 2006, $20,000 in May 2007, $20,000 in February 2008 and $25,000 in January 2009. Richard Dawkins also paid Timonen an additional $25,000 in early 2010 to cover all of Timonen’s services to be provided to Professor Dawkins personally for all of calendar year 2010. In total, Richard Dawkins has paid Timonen $130,000 for personal services. Complaint, paragraph 8. This was for "video production and website design and maintenance." Para 7.

And, paragraph 9, says RDFRS has paid Timonen the following sums for his personal services: $5,000 per month from February 2008 through October 2009 (a total of $105,000) and $2,885 every 2 weeks – an annualized rate of $75,000 – from November 2009 through May 2010 (a total of $43,750). In all, RDFRS paid Timonen $148,750 for slightly more than two years of work. This was for "video production, website design and maintenance and assorted other activities." Para 7.

In paragraph 11, RDF says Timonen was acting as an independent contractor for them and would be personally responsible for covering his own health insurance needs, state/federal taxes, etc.

In 2007, RDFRS and Timonen agreed it would be a good idea to create an online store (“The Store”) to help market the “Growing Up in the Universe” DVDs, T-shirts, caps, mugs, pins and other merchandise related to RDFRS’ mission and charitable goals. At the time, RDFRS’ Trustees believed that legal requirements (particularly controls imposed on Richard Dawkins and the UK Foundation by the British Charities Commission) made it legally impermissible for The Store to be operated by RDFRS. This information was shared with Timonen and he agreed to use his personal corporation UBP to operate The Store for RDFRS’ benefit.

In paragraph 23, RDF says, "Plaintiffs and Timonen agreed that (i) Plaintiffs would fund the creation and operation of The Store (primarily with seed money generated by the sale of “Growing Up in the Universe” DVDs), (ii) The Store would operate as a component of RDFRS’ website (from a virtual, online perspective), (iii) all proceeds from the operation of The Store belonged to RDFRS and would be remitted by UBP to RDFRS when earned, (iv) UBP would be operated honestly and
appropriately according to generally accepted accounting principles and applicable Federal and State laws, (v) Timonen was already being adequately compensated and would not receive additional compensation for operating The Store or developing any of the merchandise or marketing materials it used and (vi) any copyrights, trademarks, logos or other intellectual property developed for The Store and any inventory of Store merchandise would belong to RDFRS."

Plaintiffs are informed and believe and therefore allege that 100% of the assets and income of UBP from 2007 through May 2010 came from the sale of merchandise beneficially owned by RDFRS. Paragraph 24. I.e. - because of Timonen's verbal agreement, everything UBP is really owned by RDFRS (my translation).

So, the crux of the disagreement is fundamentally as you summarized, or at least that's part of the overall disagreement. And, note, there amounts that RDF claims were improperly spent on expenses other than salaries that they are suggesting constitute "embezzled" funds.

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Re: joshtimonen talks

Post by Coito ergo sum » Thu Oct 28, 2010 5:00 pm

maiforpeace wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:
Warren Dew wrote:
Anthroban wrote:Also, last time I checked, software engineers averaged about £35,000/year in the UK
Competent web software engineers are quite a bit more in the U.S., especially for contractors who have to cover additional taxes and other costs such as health insurance. Josh was operating from California, was he not?
And, the operation of the Store entailed more than just software engineering. He wasn't just handling the software project. According to the complaint, he was running the Store (and even an online store requires more than just the software element).
My husband is a software engineer here in CA. I asked him and he indicated for someone with Josh's experience as an independent contractor, (I'm guessing no more than 7-9 years) $70K (~£44K) would be par for the course.
Which is about what he was earning from his pay from Dawkins personally and RDFthe foundation combined for his services in video production, website design and maintenance, and "assorted other activities" to both. Complaint, paragraphs 7-9 (RDF's own allegations).

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Re: joshtimonen talks

Post by Coito ergo sum » Thu Oct 28, 2010 5:03 pm

Warren Dew wrote:
Coito ergo sum wrote:And, the operation of the Store entailed more than just software engineering. He wasn't just handling the software project. According to the complaint, he was running the Store (and even an online store requires more than just the software element).
I'm not saying it's unreasonable, necessarily - for all I know he was working 80 hours a week doing the equivalent of two full time jobs - I'm just trying to get the facts straight.

Also, while I can see how RDF might have thought the direct payments to him would cover his work on the store, it's hard to see how they could view that as meaning other people working on the store should also work for free.

And, I'm not arguing that it's reasonable (or unreasonable). Your second point raises a good question too.

Perhaps RDF is thinking that Norton really wasn't doing any appreciable work, but that Timonen was funneling money to her through UBP. Just my speculation - There is nothing about that, specifically, in the complaint.

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Re: joshtimonen talks

Post by Coito ergo sum » Thu Oct 28, 2010 5:05 pm

Svartalf wrote:The disagreement is that josh was paid a salary to handle RDFRS matters computerly, including running the store from his company since apparently the foundation could not do so itself, and he pocketed more than 90% of the profits from said store, reporting that the store was barely floating by, untile the foundation got ready to operate the store directly and got the books from him, and he had not even taken any care to disguise his embezzling as anything, just dipped into the cookie jar, sso doubling the salary he was supposed to get.
That is a good summation of Plaintiffs' allegation, I think.

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Re: joshtimonen talks

Post by hadespussercats » Thu Oct 28, 2010 8:03 pm

I skimmed the formal complaint posted over at Ratskep, and (I'm probably repeating others' points here) it seems a lot of the online store set-up and initial negotiations was done only verbally. While this was foolish of both parties, particularly RDF, I don't see how a lack of a paper contract could or should equal Timonen's assigning funds to himself (and others)-- if he (and they) were doing more work than they felt they were being fairly compensated for, the proper next course of action would be for Timonen to negotiate a new contract with RDF, where appropriate salaries or pay for hire would be specified. I hope the court sees it the same way-- particularly since, without a contract, Timonen et al can't show they were unfairly not being paid. There's no evidence they didn't agree to do the work pro bono.
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Re: joshtimonen talks

Post by hadespussercats » Thu Oct 28, 2010 8:15 pm

Warren Dew wrote:
hadespussercats wrote:Roughly 80,000 dollars a year hardly seems like nothing. I wish I made that much.
You aren't a software engineer, are you?
I'm not, but when I agree to work for a certain amount, I understand that that's the amount I'm going to get when the work is done-- even if I made a mistake and underbid.

Maybe software engineers see things differently.
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Re: joshtimonen talks

Post by Blondie » Thu Oct 28, 2010 8:28 pm

Coito ergo sum wrote:
Warren Dew wrote:
Anthroban wrote:Also, last time I checked, software engineers averaged about £35,000/year in the UK
Competent web software engineers are quite a bit more in the U.S., especially for contractors who have to cover additional taxes and other costs such as health insurance. Josh was operating from California, was he not?
And, the operation of the Store entailed more than just software engineering. He wasn't just handling the software project. According to the complaint, he was running the Store (and even an online store requires more than just the software element).
Oh please. Spare me the expert opinions here will you you two? Running an online store is something a mildly retarded middle-schooler can do. Also, as I already said Josh Timonen is not a software engineer! At best, he's a web designer. (I doubt he has more than a "study-at-home" degree in that)

From his twitter page: Josh Timonen is a designer, filmmaker and musician based in Los Angeles, California.

From his personal site JoshTimonen.com: Josh Timonen (IMDB) is a freelance designer, musician and filmmaker based in Los Angeles, California.

Oh and do check the IMDB site for his list of impressive accomplishments!
According to statistics, the average salary for a basic web designer is right around $50,000 a year. While this by all means a decent income for nearly anyone, there are several factors that are used to determine your exact salary when working as a web designer. And depending on your exact circumstances, you may be earning less or even more than this for yourself.

Factors that may affect your salary when compared to the average web designer salary:


Education
What post secondary institution did Josh go to? Did he go to one? What level of education did he attain and with what grades?


Hands-on experience within the industry
How much experience does Josh have? Jack-fuck-all. We all saw how hamfisted he was implementing his new, exciting, front page and we can still see what a design disaster it is.


Experience with related software and technology
He never could fix the database for the forums - technical idiot. It took him how long to implement that piece of shit front page that I could have crapped out in less than a week? How long was it delayed?

The size of the company
It's a CHARITY. His little company has been contracted by a, relatively, quite small, CHARITY.

Read where I got this shit from here.

From my vantage, as a professional expert in the field, Josh is lucky to have been making $40,000 a year, let alone what he was. :?
Last edited by Blondie on Thu Oct 28, 2010 8:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: joshtimonen talks

Post by devogue » Thu Oct 28, 2010 8:31 pm

How did Dawkins meet Timonen?

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Re: joshtimonen talks

Post by Blondie » Thu Oct 28, 2010 8:32 pm

hadespussercats wrote:
Warren Dew wrote:
hadespussercats wrote:Roughly 80,000 dollars a year hardly seems like nothing. I wish I made that much.
You aren't a software engineer, are you?
I'm not, but when I agree to work for a certain amount, I understand that that's the amount I'm going to get when the work is done-- even if I made a mistake and underbid.

Maybe software engineers see things differently.
Software engineers who make $80,000 a year have, at bare minimum, a BSc or a BMath from a recognised University. More than likely they have their masters and a decade of experience behind them with a long list of accomplishments on their resume.

Also, and this is just a minor point, JOSH IS NOT A SOFTWARE ENGINEEER! He doesn't even claim to be a web designer! I'd love to get my hands on his resume.
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Re: joshtimonen talks

Post by Bella Fortuna » Thu Oct 28, 2010 8:33 pm

devogue wrote:How did Dawkins meet Timonen?
They were having lunch together at a diner and Josh faked an orgasm, and the guy at the next table said "I'll have what he's having..."

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Re: joshtimonen talks

Post by Bella Fortuna » Thu Oct 28, 2010 8:34 pm

Anthroban wrote: I'd love to get my hands on his resume.
He's made quite a name for himself... http://www.imdb.com/name/nm2808370/
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Re: joshtimonen talks

Post by Blondie » Thu Oct 28, 2010 8:41 pm

Bella Fortuna wrote:
Anthroban wrote: I'd love to get my hands on his resume.
He's made quite a name for himself... http://www.imdb.com/name/nm2808370/
He sure has. :smoke:
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