Pedofilia and cultural context

[Chinaski]

Is it possible that the children in inter-generational intercourse suffer less if raised in a culture that does not recognize the concept of pedophilia as immoral? Ancient Greece, for example.

[Pappa]

Is it possible that the children in inter-generational intercourse suffer less if raised in a culture that does not recognize the concept of pedophilia as immoral? Ancient Greece, for example.

I expect so yes, though I have no idea if that is true.

[Chinaski]

We'd need to create a biological (hence inter-culturally absolute) basis for pedophilia-related suffering, and hence the immorality of it. Is this possible?

[The Curious Squid]

Firstly, it's Paedophilia or Pedophilia for americans, never Pedofilia.

It depends on circumstance doesn't it? I think that the feeling of abuse is probably lessened in such cultures but the act itself would most likely be just as painful and confusing for the child since they can't possibly understand what's going on.

[Chinaski]

What if it was naturalized into the society? What if children's stories, fairytales, cartoons, playground chatter, all dealt with paedophilia as a normal occurrence, and was viewed as uneventful a corporal activity as going swimming?

[Trolldor]

Fuck no. It's not just psychological but physical harm. A child's body is not equipped to handle to mechanics of an adult.
Secondly, there is the nature of relationships. A child is, by and large, not suitable to be in a relationship with anyone their own age because they lack experience, understanding and so on and so forth. The whole point of the age of consent is to deliniate a point where they can reasonably be expected to call upon sufficient experience and understanding to provide informed consent.
Nobody believes at the strike of midnight on their sixteenth birthday they suddenly developed the cognitive functions required, but nevertheless it is a necessary line that has to be drawn.

[Chauncey Gardner]

Is it possible that the children in inter-generational intercourse suffer less if raised in a culture that does not recognize the concept of pedophilia as immoral? Ancient Greece, for example.

couldn't the same argument be made about slavery?

[Chinaski]

Yes, it could. Remember Brave New World? The epsilons and whatnot were conditioned during their foetal stage to enjoy the manual labour they'd be forced to do. However, since they enjoyed it, there was no need to force it.

[Rum]

I think this is one of issues that is not culturally relative - a bit like female genital mutilation and depriving women of education for example. Well of course all things are relative - but I think we can be firm and judgemental if you like. I think we have learnt from the past and that the past was just downright wrong. Sex with kids appears to have been common in ancient times - in Rome for example. And in Victorian Britain, though underground, there was a huge child prostitution industry. I suspect for the most part children were simply in abusive situations with no power and nobody to make any of it better. Despite some of the over-zealous legislation around right now (almost 11 million Brits have checks done before they can take certain jobs for example) I suspect generally, here anyway, kids are a whole lot safer from exploitation than they were in generations gone by.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I think this is one of issues that is not culturally relative - a bit like female genital mutilation and depriving women of education for example. Well of course all things are relative - but I think we can be firm and judgemental if you like. I think we have learnt from the past and that the past was just downright wrong. Sex with kids appears to have been common in ancient times - in Rome for example. And in Victorian Britain, though underground, there was a huge child prostitution industry. I suspect for the most part children were simply in abusive situations with no power and nobody to make any of it better. Despite some of the over-zealous legislation around right now (almost 11 million Brits have checks done before they can take certain jobs for example) I suspect generally, here anyway, kids are a whole lot safer from exploitation than they were in generations gone by.

I related a story about a slave market specializing in young children over at TAF, I don't know how many of you saw it. People who use children in such a many deserve very special attention from some expert I have met in my travels.

[Pappa]

I think it is culturally relative. I've read about a tribe that live in the Amazon called the Piraha. In their culture it is normal for adults and parents to fondle children sexually in a way that we would regard as paedophilic. Their children appear to grow up without any harm at all whatsoever, in fact they seem to have a state of general happiness unknown in the west (they have no recorded suicides for example). I certainly think that we make huge assumptions in matters such as these, we assume our basic morals/ethics are universal, when they are not.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

I think it is culturally relative. I've read about a tribe that live in the Amazon called the Piraha. In their culture it is normal for adults and parents to fondle children sexually in a way that we would regard as paedophilic. Their children appear to grow up without any harm at all whatsoever, in fact they seem to have a state of general happiness unknown in the west (they have no recorded suicides for example). I certainly think that we make huge assumptions in matters such as these, we assume our basic morals/ethics are universal, when they are not.

Face it, being touched feels nice, if done with care and consideration. The attitude toward pedophilia is based, at least in the US, on two things, harm to the child, and religious edicts. If you make a child feel good when they're sad or loved when they're scared, the net effect is good, I think.

[Trolldor]

I think it is culturally relative. I've read about a tribe that live in the Amazon called the Piraha. In their culture it is normal for adults and parents to fondle children sexually in a way that we would regard as paedophilic. Their children appear to grow up without any harm at all whatsoever, in fact they seem to have a state of general happiness unknown in the west (they have no recorded suicides for example). I certainly think that we make huge assumptions in matters such as these, we assume our basic morals/ethics are universal, when they are not.

But that's not what pedophilia is alone. It's rather quite obvious in the world around us that pedophilia can be rather quite dangerous to a lot of children. In fact, it is dangerous to a lot of children. A small tribe in the Amazon can not possibly counter the serious violence and abuse some people direct towards children in particular, nor the exploitative way they manipulate them in to thinking that inspite of the fact that they don't want it, they are obliged to endure it, that it's part of their responsibility.

[charlou]

What a difficult topic ... mainly because any concession that pedophilia may be acceptable in certain contexts is automatically perceived as an endorsement of pedophilia in any context and is eagerly exploited by people with their own associated agendas ... for example, those who are in denial about natural childhood sexual development, those who strive to stifle it, and pedophiles who seek personal gratification at any cost.

I have mixed feelings about this as there are so many things to consider ...

A few thoughts ...

*Children are not asexual ...

The above acknowledgment alone sends people into irrational response mode.

*Clandestine, exploitative and/or painful behaviour adversely affect a child's feelings about anything, including sexuality ...

The anything in the above is underrated.

*Children are very astute learners, picking up on encultured cues, from the subtlest subconscious to obviously overt ...

They may not be able to articulate cause and effect, but it happens regardless.

*I have personal childhood experience with pedophillic exploitation and I have hindsight ...

It's not all bad.

*The thing with hindsight here is that it's from a well adjusted adult's perspective ...

The notable thing there is this adult feels well adjusted, even given her childhood experiences.

*As a parent, I want to protect my children from any exploitation ...

As a parent, sexual exploitation of children seems particularly grievous to me.

[floppit]

I think, when considering harm in reference to children it's worth changing the language a bit to aid clarity. While it's bad English I prefer to say and think 'harms' this is because there is rarely one single source of harm to be considered, and focussing just on one is just about the best way to lose sight of the child's best interests and it's that which must, above all things, remain centre stage.

In terms of the cultural context of sexualised behaviour with children, this may impact on the harms that a child faces, it may reduce aspects such as shame but increase the physical implications or rates of prevalence. Either way, each setting must be viewed in it's own right prior to suggested action, I believe this is true even at a philosophical level. Some considerations are what the alternatives are for the child, what courses of action are possible and what harm to the child will be done as a result of intervention - only a bloody fool thinks no harm comes from splitting families, it is often still necessary because it's the lesser harm but there is harm. When it comes to punishing the abuser it's not simple either - I've lost count of how many times I've heard people wax lyrical about what they'd like to happen to abusers, children hear these things too, children often still love the abuser, children can and do keep secrets.

Where there is cultural abuse it's not OK to put centre stage our feelings about it and leave out the impact our reactions might have on their lives. If a whole community is involved it effects what options are available, like finding a home with a relative rather than a stranger, or even being able to still see friends. Child genital mutilation is good example, you can't remove the children from every family that practices it - there would be nowhere for them to go, you can't easily persuade by ranting, you can only enforce by children making complaints because it is, by it's nature, very private. Like Chinese foot binding these things take a long time to deal with and along the way their cause is helped by all those who keep in mind the complexity of harms and keep the child's best interests central - also along the way the process is hindered by people adopting the cause out of their own disgust, or to further their own beliefs, increase their own power, or just 'be right' and get to point at someone else who's wrong.

Yes it needs tackling, it does not need emotional knee jerk reactions - no pitchforks!

As a side issue I get SO pissed off with the attention paid to other non western cultures when it seems to me little is known about our own. Most people think that kids wind up in care because of abuse, some do but it's a minority, the majority are just put their by parents who don't want them. The UK isn't very big and we're talking 10's of thousands of children currently unwanted. Little ones find foster homes, not always suitable ones but at least a home, teens do not fair so well. Most people think the majority of children who wind up in care have a criminal record - in the late 1990's it was actually less than 2% who came into care with a record. Most people think a rescued child is better off but statistically (from early 2000's) the siblings left in the home appear to still do better. Most people think we look after our kids and that treating children like poo is what others do - I don't foster, there is nowhere for me to point the finger as if I care for our children. I hate the subject becoming a bonding process on how much better we are - mostly (although not always) time would be better spent getting our own act together. I get really sick of children being used as pawns in bigger battles, I'm all for action but action that acknowledges and weighs up carefully the reality of how interventions effect and usually do harm (hopefully less than the abuse) children too.